The show’s guest in this episode is Marita Fridjhon. She is a highly sought-after global speaker and is the lead author of the article “Relationship Systems Intelligence: Transforming the Face of Leadership” and co-author of the book “Creating Intelligent Teams” and “Systems Inspired Leadership”.

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What Does Systems Inspired Leadership Bring To Us Today?

And What Has Changed Since Our Last Interview?

Hello, it is so great to be here live with you today. I’m super excited because I’ve been doing this podcast for two years. It’s like, wow, I, you know, I, my mother would have said, Wow, you hardly stick with anything for two years. And that’s not completely true at this stage in my life. But I do feel proud in this moment. And I have huge gratitude for my team, Molly and Christine, who have been around on this journey, doing all of the work, I get all the glory, and they get all the work. And they do such an amazing job on the back end. And so I’m so grateful for you, and the work you do on the experimental leader Podcast. I’m so grateful to all the guests who have come on the podcast and who have shared their stories. I feel so privileged to get to just have amazing leaders on my podcast. And then I get to ask them whatever I want. So I get to pick their brains and get to hear from them.

And I’ve been thinking about my own leadership, and I got to hang out with a fantastic two year old this weekend. His name is Juan, and he’s from Brazil. And he came over for an Easter egg hunt at our house. And we gave him a superhero cape. And when he put on that superhero cape, he was immediately transformed. He struck a pose, and he started to circle the couch at high speed. And he stood differently. And it made me ponder sort of, what was his dream? Like, what was his superhero dream? Who was he? When he put the cape on? He was faster, he was stronger. He stood differently, he thought differently. And then I was at a convenience store this morning. And there was a woman, she was probably in her 70s. And she was buying a huge number of lottery tickets. And I think she also had a dream. And she was jovial. And then she walked off and I thought, Oh, she has a dream of having a lot of money. And I was curious about what it was about money. That was her dream. Was it dignity was it, you know, a great place to live? Was it a great, you know, the ability to travel like there’s something about her dream, and everyone we know and everyone we meet and everyone we supervise, afford a leadership role. We everyone has a dream. And I think it’s our job as a leader to know their dreams. So my challenge to you is to think about what’s the dream of the people around you, and how can you help them achieve a piece of it.

And when I thought about doing our second anniversary edition of our podcast today, and I started to think, who I would want to invite on this journey with me, there was one name that popped into my head, and I wanted to invite Marita Fridjhon, who is one of my mentors. She is one of the founders of CR global. She is a highly sought after global speaker. And she’s the lead author of an article called relationship systems intelligence, transforming the face of leadership and she’s the co author of the book, creating intelligent teams and system and inspired leadership. She’s one of my major mentors in coaching. I’ve known her for decades, and I’ve known of her work for much longer.

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I am so excited to welcome Marita freeze on on my show.

Thank you Melanie I cannot even tell you how delighted and surprised and proud I am to be your guest of honor today and so grateful for all the work that you’ve done and we go back a long way and you have staying power. I think your mom saw that. But you also sometimes said just stay a little bit longer.

Thank you. Yes. Yeah, I I kind of I don’t go very I stick around I I like hanging on to people. Yeah. Well, it’s it’s such an honor to have you and I’m so it’s excited about your new book. And and I’d love to just ask you what you’re most excited about people find a niche and a place that they have something to say in the world. Why was it important for you to write this book?

Well, you know, it’s interesting how often we do things. So we think we were planning it. But I think most of the time, there was something behind us that was dreaming us into something. So I’ve started talking about system inspired leadership, I think the first blog that I posted was in 2015, or something like that. So it’s been with me for a while. And where I’m sitting today is a slightly different place further along the journey from when we started writing the book before COVID pandemic hit. And that is that the concept of systems inspired whether we put it in front of leadership in front of coaching, in front of teaching in front of parroting, I think systems Inspire is a key concept for this world that we’re living in at the moment, particularly since democracy is coming under so much attack, and there’s so much going on in the world around democracy, and can we still believe it or not? I think there’s something about being systems inspired that is informed by the system and through the system. And I think that’s what I’m really, really excited about in terms of how do we impact leaders to think more from that perspective. And that’s why I love the book that you your book, as well, that is about experimental leadership is that’s to some extent, part of what systems inspired is it’s, let’s experiment together. Here’s what my dream is, but what are yours? I love the examples of dreams that she got. So I think it’s that piece, and to then keep on focusing on how people pay it forward.

And when you talk about systems inspired, I have some idea, you know, having a systems coaching certification through CRR Global, but when you talk about systems inspired leadership, can you dig into that a little more about what that mean?

I think the simplest way to talk about that is for as from my beingness, as a systems inspired leader, I know and trust that I don’t have to have all the answers. But I need to be able to tap it from my team. So system is probably leadership honestly, is believing and trusting that the system itself has the answers. Now the question then is how do we get that voice of the system so that it can begin to inform us? And I think that that’s what the entire book is about? What are the ways in which we can practice and execute on being systems inspired leaders. And it’s interesting, because we the book is based on a lot of the material that underlies that as well. And that lines up empirically is how many leaders that we interviewed just about every one of them talked about when they start thinking from that perspective, how there’s an outbreath. Because they don’t feel like they, they feel like they don’t have to carry the load. They can look out and ask and trust. So that was a longer answer. But I think you you’ve got it. Yeah, absolutely. It’s underlying all of the training that we do, even in our core curriculum.

Well, how do you think about something like? I mean, I should probably tell you upfront, I’m not a huge fan of the strategic plan. But how do you think of strategic plans when you think of system leaderships?

I think there’s some neuroscience that supports us in to go to strategy last. There is some of the I’m not an expert in neuroscience. But there is some evidence that shows us that when we are in strategic mind, relationship falls away, the brain simply cannot navigate both of those at the same time. And that’s when strategy begins to lose it because there’s not creativity left. So brain science supports that. There is some of the there is an Aboriginal practice, Aboriginal practice, that is about having, solving problems by having dialogues with questions. Just asking questions, not having an answer. And it now is beginning to be used in I use it in corporate environments a lot and with my own team as well. So if you take 15 minutes and save for 15 minutes, we don’t have answers. We just ask questions, even stupid questions. 15 minutes, when we see over and over again isn’t about the two, three minute mark, there is an opinion that is in the tone of the question. Why don’t? So why don’t we think about letting go of everything and studying completely differently? That’s an open question. You can hear it in a tone. What I asked the question and say, why don’t we just let go of everything? You can hear that there’s already an opinion in that tone, it’s very difficult for us to stay in the question. And what we do when we have that dialogue with questions is we begin to take notes, because over time you begin to see the themes arrive, of where there are possible solutions in this creative thinking place. And from those themes, those themes, we can then take back to strategy and go okay, if we look at these themes, where do we tackle the strategy piece from that first? So it really is all what are the practices that we can use to take us out of the constant thinking mind, to creative mind and to relational mind, and then then return to strategic thinking. But the strategic roundtable conversation is circling the drain, and it becomes very fatiguing, and much less creative, but very fatiguing for the leader.

Well, and I’m still back at when people are strategically thinking people go away. So that’s a new thought for me. And I’m fascinated by this idea. And I, I’m sort of testing it in my mind, because you do you get really smart, you start to get really smart in your own mind as you’re thinking of all the solutions and possibilities. But often you’re not thinking about all the people. I also love the idea of some kind of caught up process, you know, and that’s in my book that has you come up with a target condition. And then you’re trying to figure out what the barriers are to that target condition. And then you’re trying to experiment along the way in some kind of continuous improvement. Because even you know, the first thing that whenever I say, Well, maybe we should do a Kata on that when I am coaching someone, finding the target condition is the hardest things. Like it’s absolutely the hardest part of the work is to figure out where we’re headed.  And so then figuring out, you know, what you want to try to get there is is?

Absolutely. And I think that, as we can get a little bit more sophisticated, and get more creative, credibility around doing just that solutions. You know, I keep on thinking about the Bucha saying that, if we want to go fast go alone, if you want to go far go together. Yeah, it seems fast in the beginning of somebody go, Okay, here’s the best thing, let’s do it, let’s get going. But it stalls at some point. That’s where the creativity, and again, that principle that we’re talking about in relationship systems intelligence, that systems rely on roles for executing of its functions. And the role of wisdom, whether we call it elder or whatever we call it. The role of leader lives within every one of our team members. And when you lost the definition, yeah, when you ask for the definition of systems inspired leadership, that is one of the edges that leaders need to step over or cross to really trust that somebody in this system in my team has an answer that I don’t have.

Well, it’s it’s so interesting, because years before I met you, Mel, my husband and I did a lot with the Unitarian young adults and consensus decision making. And and it’s funny how you go full circle in your life, because yes, we’re now like talking about consensus decision making again, and it’s and it’s, it’s exactly from the same place of the system’s inspired. Listening deeply to each other. Yes. And it’s it’s this idea that it’s just so important to it’s so much more important to hear people and to integrate what people know into the decision that than it is to go rapidly to you know, unless it’s a paint color, in which case, designate somebody to pick the paint and go fast. And then use up all the all the decision making on something that matters.

Yeah. But yeah, no, I agree with you completely that there is, in fact, part of what you describe is the difference between complicated choosing a paint color and complex. It’s, it’s two different tables to sit, sit around. So I agree with you completely. And what is interesting when you just said how our lives circle around, and you know, it really is that hopefully, in terms of evolution is that upward spiral of evolution. And I think that there is ways in which whether we call it a quantum universe or quantum consciousness, or doing something similar. That’s when you begin to get that sense, when you start noodling with something. And I talked to what I said earlier, I thought it was my own noodling. But it really is the system itself, the wisdom of the larger system that you can even consider coming up and tapping different individuals with some insight. And then we built the small pieces that’s ours to build, but the evolution of humanity continues to cycle, hopefully upward as well.

If I can have one legacy in my lifetime, it would be to destroy Robert’s Rules of Order. Because it would have implications on moving feminism forward and race forward. And people who come from different socioeconomic backgrounds forward that one thing destroys decision making in so many groups. And, you know, it’s it’s, I can’t even watch it without agony now. And it’s an end institutions that act as if their moral, wield it immorally with no reservations whatsoever, and it horrifies me.

Check your belief system because you may believe genuinely that the body grows frail and old and tired as you age. If that is a belief held in the mind, you will grow frail, tired and brittle as you age. Share on X

Yeah, and I think that’s the challenge of being human, that we are in the place in our moment in time, across time systems are in a constant state of emergence. And we see it from that very personal experience place that in this moment of this now, that is the thing that is I mean, come on, how can it even be like that? And we don’t know yet. There is a there is in even in that, too, is something that is trying to emerge. And we just don’t know what it isn’t in this moment of this. Now, it just frustrates us. And hopefully, and maybe it also motivates us. If that is one of the small pieces that is mine to do to work that piece, then the bigger the frustration, the more I’ll begin to look. And I say I us as human beings begin to look at Where’s the place that I can find an entry point to begin to? Needle and noodle with that to make a change? And otherwise we would just be bored.

As a leader, what dreams do you have of creating change? Like where do you dream of changing the world?

One of the biggest places that I and you know these things, we all evolve and shift through this earth you asked me this question. Next week, I’ll probably have a different answer maybe, I think the biggest place for us to really pay attention to regardless of profession, of status, of race of wherever it the place that we need to put our attention on is what we talked about as that the three iterative stages of systemic evolution. iterative, because all three happens in every one of the phases. But it’s the phases of meet, reveal a line and act. There’s not enough meeting that is happening in our world. We see Frozen frames the moment I think of somebody or something. The moment I think I don’t want to bring politics in too much. But there was a conversation we had the other day with community, European community where There were people in the topic of the Ukrainian war came up and there were people speaking about the Russians, and at some stage, somebody put their hand up and said, Don’t collapse. Russians, with the leader that you’re angry about. I am Russian. And past everybody. And you can see how that is what that’s the frozen frame. We don’t know. And we don’t pay attention to curiosity of who really is in front of me. It’s not the same person that I met last week. It’s not the same it when it’s Asian. It’s not a frozen frame. Yeah, it is a human being. That certainly It’s that place of meeting, we are living in a time at the moment, wherever we is revealing. And in the revealing, it’s too much. And then the alignment act that comes from that is aggression.

Again, so that’s the meet and then meet…

meet is what we do when we do our design team Alliance that’s meeting. Reveal is where we begin to get to the nitty gritty of what’s troubling. Reveal also brings us the stuff that are good. But because we may get triggered by the nitty gritty pieces, where the you know, picked to death by ducks pieces we get involved in that only. So revealing is bringing the conflict is bringing highlights is bringing questions that’s revealing. We can’t stay in revealing for too long, because we get tired. So there’s a place where we need to begin to look at where is it that we can align. And you can hear how that’s more in the strategic direction. How do we align around this is the one avenue that we can explore now, what are the actions that we can put you that so I think matron V align and x critical. And I don’t think we do enough meeting, not in our meetings, not you know, you and I came on for a little bit and we talked because who showed up on the call as somebody because of all the cyber stuffs that is happening. When I set with my trying to open my YouTube this morning. It I had to verify and my passwords and different things. So by the time that I actually said hello to your host. I wasn’t whoever she thought that Merida free. Gianni is the best selling author they were I was irritable. So you can see how we just we don’t know. And if we don’t spend time in that meeting, then we get stuck in the reveal because it blows up. If that blows up, we can’t align an act. So you can see how that question about strategy. Really, unless we pay attention to meet, reveal align and act, we can get to a strategic goal that we can be successful with.

Well, and I think, you know, just to for this time, you know, put with COVID people, people have been through a lot. Yes. You know, I see it with my clients as a coach with a full practice. I I see the weight my clients have carried over the last year I just Yes. And and so get into alignment. We don’t have any like bright eyed, bushy tailed people working right now. If we do they’ve just entered the workforce. You know, it’s it’s the new hires, because those who have carried others like leaders, they’re fatigued in a way that I’ve never seen. And I don’t know how they heal themselves, either because it’s heavy.

I agree with you. It’s really interesting. Unfortunately, I can’t tell you who did the research where that was. I came across a research piece the other day that talked about how the suicide rate for suicide for CEOs have rapidly increased over the last year 18 months. And it’s part of that fatigue that you’re talking about. And that is why I think it’s so important to shift to become systems inspired, that I could come to a meeting as a leader and say, Tim, can we take a minute to just check in? Yeah. What is the fatigue that you carry today? What is the just everybody take a minute and just bring it and what is one thing And that gives you anything like that, that had us have us be able to sit around the table and really see who Melanie is today, and really see how everybody is. And just not you can’t it’s not about fixing it is about Wow. Yeah, that’s rough.

Yeah, I had a glimpse of this kind of in the height of COVID. And I had, you know, with a group of women, I had done this thing, you know, where I put my arms around my, you know, myself, and we looked in each other’s eyes, and we hugged. And I did this with my most cynical tech guy, and he bought in 100%. And I was like, Whoa, like, this is a world I never, I was like, I think you need a hug. And he didn’t resist. And I realized what you know, that need that people have and that, yes, I need to not make up anything about people and their needs. Give, give all those squishy love, you know, that I have as as a human being, because people don’t have the reserves to be on their little island being cynical. They won’t make it that people peace is so important.

Yes, you make me think of our CFO, sometimes dogs it for her daughter when our daughter goes away. And there are two big dogs. And for some reason or other one of those dogs. The moment it here’s my here’s my voice, it talks back and go out. And every now and again, when she is dog sitting for them, she will call me and go, I have nothing that I need to discuss, I just need to hear and I can’t remember the name of the dog, I just need to hear him. So can you talk a little bit and the two of you talk a little bit. And then we have this conversation where I talk and then the dog calls talks back and then I talk and then and that’s the call that is meeting of a very diff. So anything like that. There was a it made me think there was one time I had a call with people. And I’m not bringing names here. But one of them, you know, that has a big Labrador. And the lab comes up and snuggles with them with. And so then there was a meeting that I came in and it was a it was a heavy time. And somebody also was a different meeting, somebody had a cat, jump on the table and whatever. And people were just down. And I requested that anybody that has a pet, while you please go fetch the pet, bring it here and give us a shot of what he she it looks like. And if you don’t have a pet, pick the one that you want to pet. Okay. And people went and somebody had a parakeet, and somebody had a cat and many people had the dog, and somebody else had the bunny. And I was like completely, but he changed the scene. So it’s really important for us to not make up positivity, but to help all of us hunt for it. Because we go back to the Gottman material that is as true in organizations and for leaders and teams. As for everybody else, that there has to be a very high ratio of positive to negative in order to survive. And sometimes we really have to hunt for the positive it’s there. But we have to hunt for it. Because the surface has so much that’s stressful.

And is there a Gottman book that you would recommend specifically…

He’s one of the seven principles that make marriage work when I say the research, but there are others Malcolm Gladwell, and there are several business publications that have published more up to date, because their organizations, I think, I think it’s more convertible, I came up and talked about that in corporate structures, it needs to be something like 18 to five or so needs to be much higher. So but any just the concept that we need to harvest the positivity because without that we can’t move on.

Yeah, that book by the way, the seven principles of making marriage work, I cleaned out a bookcase recently and found five copies because it is the most loan book on my bookshelf because I send it home with people and most people bring it back eventually. And sometimes it’s out and I ordered another copy. And so for those of you listening, if you want to fix your marriage or your team, it’s a great book.

Yeah, because so much of a transfer across it just looks it’s more sophisticated.

Well, it’s just a great book for any relationship you his research is in marriage but that’s Just because it’s a relationship with stakes attached, and sort of some measurement like your marriage either stays together, it doesn’t.

Well, and if you think about one of these, what they he calls the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, we translated the cross as to Team toxins because we work in different religious countries and states and a biblical reference is not always the best thing to have. But if you think about the toxin of stonewalling, how do we do it in business? We don’t answer emails.

It’s so ubiquitous. And it goes along power lines, like you wrote, you always answer your boss, but you don’t have to answer the person below you.

Systems Inspired Leadership: How to Tap Collective Wisdom to Navigate Change, Enhance Agility, and Foster Collaboration

So you know, so much of what is out there. And I think that, to get back to the book, I think part of what we wanted to do is to pull together just the diversity, working with the five principles of RSI, that really underlies and informs all of our work. And then to look what are the what are the ways in which we can operationalize it also, for the leaders who might be or team members who might be reading the book. So I think that one of the things we talked about is, the ability is how to that every each in each team has its own identity. And each member of the team is the voice of the system. So one of the skills there is how to sense see and hear the system. And that’s a that’s a critical system described leader. skill set. Sensing is just noticing when you are sitting on a screen and watching five people seeing what’s happening on the faces, but then also sensing something, what that might mean, it just the question about that. What’s what’s everybody’s sensual feeling on our team at the moment, where I noticed that somebody has gone dark and there isn’t a note, no, pop, you are okay, or anything like that. That is revealing the system to itself a little bit more, so that it can begin to figure out what it needs to do next.

I believe your book is the best seller. It is. Congratulations on that. And where can people find it?

Amazon.com or Amazon, wherever it is. Amazon.ca. It is the biggest platform globally. And in different countries, people know where to go, because it’s Amazon is distributed team as well. So it has Amazon for specific countries as well. And then there are other publishers that also buy into Amazon. And if Amazon has not allowed in certain countries, I don’t have all of that in my head. But people who live in different countries will know where and how that works.

That’s great. Well, it has been just such a pleasure to have you on my show. It’s always a pleasure to spend time with you. Thank you so much for being here today.

Likewise, Melanie, always and just wishing you the best with everything that’s ahead and continue on just makes a difference.

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Thank you so much. You’re welcome. Thank you. Well, it is so fun to talk with Marita Fridjhon on she is masterful at systems and what I would call feedback loops. And I love this idea of systems inspired leadership. The idea that we don’t have to lead alone is so much a part of how I think about leadership as well. I really want to challenge you to challenge your own thinking think about where you try to go it alone and have to be smart. And I really want to bust you on that. I want you to think about how you can bring others in when you feel like you have to figure it out all by yourself and where others could help you do it better. It’s been great being with you today. Go experiment.

 

Important Links: 

Marita Fridjhon

Marita Fridjhon, born in South Africa and based in the USA, is co-founder of CRR Global.

Marita has an academic background with degrees in medical and psychiatric social work as well as family systems therapy.

Growing up in South Africa during the apartheid era and being a faculty member at Cape Town University profoundly impacted her and created the basis of exploration in systemic change. That became the driver to embark on cross-cultural research, including two years on the Amazon River and work in Brazil, Perú, Columbia, the British West Indies, and Puerto Rico, to name but a few. The outcome of these experiences provided training and focus on corporate, NGO, and government work using mediation, process work consulting, and coaching.

Together with her partner, Faith Fuller, she founded the international training and consulting business CRR Global, home of the legendary ORSC curriculum.

As CEO of CRR Global, Marita heads up a global distributed leadership team with partners in fourteen different countries and a global training faculty. She also develops curriculums and provides team coaching.

Marita is a highly sought-after global speaker and is the lead author of the article “Relationship Systems Intelligence: Transforming the Face of Leadership” and co-author of the book “Creating Intelligent Teams” and “Systems Inspired Leadership”.

 

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