The show’s guest in this episode is Jaime Mann. She is the founder of The Amaryllis Project, blends psychology and leadership expertise to empower teams and individuals through connection. With 15+ years of experience, she helps leaders thrive using positive psychology and behavioral science. A coach and lifelong learner, Jaime is pursuing a Master’s in Leadership Psychology. She also loves reading, karaoke, and all things sparkly.

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Leadership Through Connection with Jaime Mann

Hello, welcome to the show. I’m Melanie Parish. I’m an author, speaker, facilitator and executive coach.

Hi. I’m Mel Rutherford. I’m McMaster University’s first transgender department chair, and I’m the co host of the experimental leader podcast.

Well, I’ve been thinking about some interesting things this week. Mel, I don’t know what you’ve been thinking about, but I’ve been thinking about, well, I’ve been thinking about snow, because we live in Ontario, Canada, and there has been a large amount of snow in the last couple of weeks and and we used to like have a contract for clearing our driveway, but about 10 years ago, we stopped paying that contract because we stopped needing to clear our driveway, because it hasn’t snowed that much in about 10 years. And so last week, we had a ton of snow, and Mel actually did a lot of a lot of trying to get a place for me to get my car up the driveway. I was out of town and and then there were these two kids who walked by with snow shovels on a weekend when we were out trying to figure out what to do. And it made me think a lot about entrepreneurship, so we waved them down and said, Hey, are you looking for work? And they were, in fact, looking for work and and it made me think about how entrepreneurship works, like they managed to, you know, extract $100 for us, for, I don’t know, probably about an hour’s worth of work shoveling, which might sound like a lot, but I was so impressed that they were out with snow shovels. I don’t think my kids ever would have done that. But also, it was really hard work, and they showed up at exactly the right moment in time, and I it made me think about client acquisition, because what I realized is, if it snows again, they’re not going to have to go wandering around with snow shovels looking for work. They’re going to come straight to our house later. We had friends over for dinner. Turns out they went to their house too, so they knew actually which driveways to target, because our friends also overpaid them, and I think they did pretty well on the snow removal. But I was just thinking about how relationship is so important in entrepreneurship, because you know where your clients are. If you develop good relationships with those clients, you can go back and work with them again and again. And it was just such a cool example, because the first day they they’d never seen a snow like that, so they didn’t have any clients day one, but now they’ve got, like, two regular clients that have big driveways. So what are you thinking about?

Well, I was thinking about how taking a coach approach can make leadership easier. So one of the things that happens sometimes and when you’re leading an organization is people want you to get get engaged with their conflicts and help help them resolve their conflicts. And I recently had a situation where people were in conflict, and each side was bringing me piles of, you know, what they what they were thinking of as evidence, and I all these emails that they had exchanged and and you know thing, you know, documents for me to look at, and that seemed like a lot of work for me to get to the bottom of who’s right and who’s wrong. So instead, I just took a coach approach, and I asked them, What do you want the outcome to be, and and what are your goals here? What are your How? How will we move forward in alignment with your values? What you know, what are your barriers to getting your goals served. And you know, what should we do now? And so, and I didn’t look at any of the evidence, and they kept, they kept pointing me back to the emails they had exchanged, and I kept just saying, Well, what should we do now? And I like, what the thing that I noticed, I mean, there’s, there’s a lot to say about taking a coach approach, but the thing that I noticed is how much. Less of a workload. It was for me. I didn’t have to pile through all of the, you know, all the evidence that they were presenting me. So
I have a question for you about that, like, what if there’s injustice? There’s a lot of injustice in the world right now. Like, what? What if there’s actually injustice? What’s your role as a leader?

Well, I mean, that’s a good point. So there’s, like, there’s a limit to how much I can be hands off. And I did have, I did listen to them. I didn’t read all of their emails, but I did listen to the cases they were presenting, so I understood what they felt the injustices were I, you know, and I could have read differently if I thought there was a power imbalance being exploited, or something like that. So So yeah, there would be a limit, but in this particular situation, I was able to open the door for them to to offer solutions.

I want to talk about this just a little more, but I actually want to. I’m really excited about our guest, and I actually want our guests to talk about this with us, so I want to bring her in. I’m really excited to introduce Jamie Mann. Jamie Mann is on a mission. She’s a busy mother of three and a partner in a commercial construction company, and she’s faced her share of challenges, and she’s got 15 plus years of leadership experience and a background in psychology, she founded the amaryllis project, a coaching and advisory firm, and it’s focused on building better leadership through connection, both to self and others. She’s passionate about helping organizations and teams thrive in the world of work.

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Welcome to the show, Jamie.

Oh, hi. Thank you for having me. Good morning.

Welcome, welcome. And you heard this conundrum. I think it’s a really interesting question, like, what do you do as a leader when it’s unjust? And I have an opinion. I mean, I just want to say, before I get your thoughts, it’s an unjust world. So having dad the like, we all like the proverbial dad boss, who’s gonna solve it and weigh in and pick the winner? Yeah, I actually don’t. I like this idea that you threw back even, even in the face of injustice, I think it’s okay to take this coaching approach. I don’t think even with injustice, we have to have that be our job as leaders. But I’m curious to hear what you guys think.

Well, you know first thing, obviously, you know, like you guys talked about, it’s really important to to kind of get the facts first and know what you’re dealing with. Obviously, there’s a line between what is something that really needs to be dealt with? Because it’s a power imbalance or something like that, versus more standard everyday sort of disagreement or difference of opinion between two people? Sometimes this can come just from simple stuff, like, you know, not having clear role expectations, or something like that. Sometimes it’s because of the stories we have two people telling each other. And when we think about how the world of work is today, with different generations people working together from different parts of the world, there’s a lot of room for difference of opinion. And so when I work with people, I always kind of start with that. Don’t assume I’m going to think the same way. You will. Let’s start from a place of curiosity. First of all, and then the second thing that, I mean, I love Mel, you said, like it did reduce the workload, right? You don’t have to be a lawyer going through case files and deciding who’s guilty and who’s not, because really that that does not strengthen relationship. And so I like to remind people also, okay, let’s, let’s bring it back to, first of all, what are we working towards? And Mel, you kind of said, what? What’s the outcome you want? And then when people come out with, okay, I want this and I want this, and we’re still maybe at an impasse, I like to ask, okay, this is the outcomes you both want? Let’s talk for a moment about what outcome do you want for this relationship going forward, what outcome do you want, actually, you know, Melanie, if you or I are in this thing, you know what I’m going to think. What’s the outcome I want for Melanie going forward? Well, I want Melanie to feel legitimately, that I understand where she’s coming from. I want Melanie to feel like I care about how we’re going to work together tomorrow and next week. And so then I like to add, when people are coming up with, what do I want for that other person? Then I say, Okay, if you did really want that for Melanie, how would you respond right now? How would you behave right now? And sometimes that’s like enough of a break to go. You know, ahead, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. I it’s not about me being right, like, let’s bring it back to more of a human connection component, and work forward in a way that’s productive.

I think that’s really interesting. And it reminds me I haven’t certification, a coaching certification in organization and relationship systems coaching, and we have one rule, and that’s, everyone’s right, partially, yeah, and, and I think, I think coming at it that way, I think this is a really, really interesting Mel as a leadership thinking exercise.

Right, right, because they come in the door wanting the leader to declare who was right and who was wrong. And that’s maybe not what the system needs, right?

And that usually comes from, I find a place of, you know, humans really do need and go after like a sense of fairness. I don’t, you know, I don’t know if you’ve experienced that also, people want things to be fair and so, and that’s okay. But when we when that’s our one goal, and we’re coming at it with blinders on from our own perspective, to be able to take somebody out of that and like to provide fairness, but in a way, like a different angle, it’s not about right and wrong. It’s about getting people to kind of empathize with one another another. And I know that’s kind of a buzzword that’s that’s overused sometimes, but to be able to work productively through that.

Jamie, and you’ve thought a lot about how relationships are foundational to leadership, can you say a little bit more about that?

Absolutely, in my experience, and I do a lot of work, actually, in the civility and respect realm too, as far as how that builds trust and connection with our teams. And the reality is, leadership is a mindset, and so whether or not we have a title, whether wherever we are in the hierarchy, or however our organization is laid out, we all influence and impact one another, regardless of our title, and so that is a different way of thinking about leadership in organizations, because obviously, I’m not saying hierarchies are should go out the window, but I think that we all need to have a little bit more agency and accountability. And first of all, what I bring to the situation, how I approach you, what I bring into that meeting, what my energy is when I show up and I’m frazzled because of my morning and how I’m impacting others. And so with civility work, it’s so much more than you know, every company has a respectful workplace policy, right? We’re respectful, we get along, we’re connected. We should work well together, and there’s a lot more to it, because when we are connected to people and impacting other people, we have to be committed to understanding what that impact is. And so, you know, when I work with leadership teams or, you know, or or collaborative teams, a lot of times, it’s about building that awareness about what our impact is actually on one another, and what are the specific behaviors that I do or don’t do that are going to move the needle in how we impact one another. And if you’ve ever worked in a team or worked with a team that has perhaps one or two, I want to say, challenging people or personalities or, you know, they’re just maybe more demanding than others, or they have a more aggressive approach than others. You know, the energy shift that happens, you can just feel it, you know, when that person walks into the room. And so even working with people on that, like the awareness around that, is really powerful, because when we can when we can build trust, and when people really believe that we care about our impact on each other, we can have differences of opinion. We can have challenges. We can have obstacles that ratchet the stress up and we can still work together productively and not damage relationships going forward.

I find this word civility really interesting. Often I challenge people to walk away from the word respect, because it has a lot of cultural connotations. It’s as if half the people in the relationship got a rule book and the other half didn’t, and and it’s a powerful word, like, if you say you disrespected me, you’re like, enforcing your position without actually stating any data. Like, there’s there’s no name. Meaning of what it was. So I actually like the idea of civility. It has sort of a different connotative meaning, and it’s, it’s, I may actually borrow that that word, because I like it quite a lot, as opposed to the word respect, which I’m quite clear in my culture what respect is, but I’m not quite clear in every culture what respect is 100%.

And actually, that idea that exactly what you’re talking about comes up quite a bit, especially when, like I said, we have all these different people working together with different experiences. And so I recall once working with a team where one member was really at odds with another, and it all came down to, at the end of the day, what they defined as respectful or not, and it had to do with how we use technology. So one person felt you texted me that you couldn’t even pick up the phone, young pup, you? You disrespectful young person? The young person was like, I don’t want to interrupt this person. I know this person has at home with their children and family having dinner right now, I don’t want to call and interrupt this person. I’m going to message because I know when it’s right for him, he will get this message and have the information he needs when he comes to work the next day. So you had two people thinking about respect differently and what that looks like, which caused a story right? Stories get us into some trouble. Sometimes it caused a story based on assumptions and judgment without communication. And that ended up in, you know, two people kind of feeling at odds with each other.

Yeah, and I noticed you keep using the word impact, and I think that’s really practical and applicable. Like, what like, given the people that are here in the room today, what, what are, what’s the impact that’s happening.

And that’s a foundational piece of you know, civility research, as far as if I embody civility in my work or in my life, one of the parts of the definitions is, and this is by, if you’re curious, Melanie, because you mentioned It’s by civility experts worldwide. The first part is having a conscious awareness of our impact on others, but it’s our impacts of our behaviors, our actions, our thoughts, our words, our intentions. It’s not just the impact on what I physically do in the meeting. It’s the impact of what I’m thinking about and the assumptions I’m having, which are then going to have an ultimate impact on how we move forward. So the impact is really, really key, and it’s that commitment to consciously working at that awareness, because humans are messy. Humans are messy. We get we get caught up in our own stuff.

Where are you experimenting in your life as a leader?

That’s a great question. What I am trying to do is master my inner game and then really look at the impact of that on day to day. And so what, what I’ve experienced throughout my journey, and what I what I see in the clients and the teams I work with, is that we underestimate how small tweaks to our own approach or our own thoughts even are going to have a really, really big impact on what we’re trying to achieve going forward. And so we think, Ah, this isn’t going to make a difference ultimately, you know, I can’t control Melanie. I can’t control Mel. What’s the difference? If I think about this differently or not, it’s all, it’s all going to turn out the same way. And when we get stuck in that sort of lack of agency or accountability, then nothing changes. And what I’ve experienced is that when we actively commit to being curious we can better connect with other people, because we fall into the trap of there’s lots of cognitive biases humans rely on regularly. That’s just a human thing. There’s lots of assumptions we individually make because of our own experiences, and those color. A lot of the things we do going forward, and it’s a lot of it is is not even conscious to us. So that commitment to staying curious and looking at things kind of like an investigator, that’s what I always I’m a visual person. I kind of like the metaphor. So we have to be investigators, and the accountability starts with us, and we cannot lead others successfully or have a positive impact until we’re able to lead ourselves first.

And where can people find you, Jamie?

Well, you can find me on LinkedIn, and the other place you can find me is my website, the amaryllis project.com, and just so people know, the amaryllis project, again, metaphors, the amaryllis flower grows out of a bulb. If you’ve ever seen one, you sit it on your counter, you don’t do anything with it. You ignore it, and it grows with this beautiful, hearty, determined stock, into a beautiful, showy flower. And so they can last a long time. They’re brilliant, and they they kind of grow out of nothing. And I think that that’s a good metaphor for who we are, because we all are resilient. It’s a matter of tapping into that resilient, resilient nature and so kind of taking the initiative to work on ourselves,

That’s great. Thank you so much for being on our show.

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That was really interesting talking, and I really like this concept of civility.

It was a fun conversation. I I liked the idea that leadership is a mindset leaving some space for people who don’t have a leadership role or a leadership title to to bring leadership to the to the organization.

I always think of when I wrote my book, it was really interesting to think about who the audience was, and I I finally realized that one of the come froms I needed to have was to think about everyone leads their own life, and and there’s nobody else leading, leading your own life. And that really opened up the concept of leadership for me, in any role, everybody has the potential to be a leader at any time. And I think these are times probably that demand leadership from many, many directions, right? Well, it’s been great being here with you today. Go experiment.

Go experiment.

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Jaime Mann

Jaime Mann is on a mission. As a busy mom of 3, and partner in a commercial construction company, she has faced her share of challenges. With 15+ years of leadership experience and an extensive background in psychology, she founded The Amaryllis Project, a coaching and advisory firm focused on building better leadership through connection – both to self and others. Jaime is passionate about helping organizations and teams thrive in the ever-changing world of work.

The concept of connection as currency fuels Jaime’s practice, and she empowers others to build better leadership – both within themselves and within their teams. Through a fusion of positive psychology, leadership psychology, behavioral science, mental health science, and self-belief work, Jaime uses her energetic, non-nonsense approach to engage and inspire.

Jaime is an Associate Certified Coach (ACC), Member of the International Coaching Federation (ICF) and the Canadian Positive Psychology Association (CPPA), Gallup-Certified Strengths Coach and is currently pursuing a Master’s Degree of Professional Studies (MPS) in the Psychology of Leadership at Penn State University.


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