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Courageous Leadership with Lisa Marie Platske

Hello, everybody, we are here with you live today. And I have an announcement to make. And that is that I’m pretty excited to be breaking up with my brand. I’ve been thinking about it for some time, like most breakups, it hasn’t been right for some time. And and the reason I want to break up with my brand is because I think it’s just constraining me a little bit. It’s like my, it feels too tight on my skin. And and the reason I’m breaking up is because it’s just not quite right. It doesn’t excite me, I think it’s too small. I think it’s boring. And, and I don’t know exactly what the new brand is. And it probably won’t have a new name or anything, but it will have new rules. So when I launched the experimental leader brand around the experimental book, three years ago, in 2020, April of 2020, is when my book came out. And right around the same time we launched the podcast. So this is the third anniversary of our podcast. And it’s it’s been a good ride, and but what I’ve been feeling as I try to engage with social media as I don’t want any part of it. And the reason I don’t want any part of it is that I have stupid rules. And my brand that I’ve I’ve made up I mean, it mostly is my brand. It’s not like anybody else has imposed these on me. But I had a time that I was looking with Christine who does a lot of my social media. And so many pictures were off the table because they weren’t businessy enough.

And, and I realized that most of the good, interesting, fun, exciting things I do in my life aren’t what we would put on social media. And somehow I am, you know, wanting to share me as an interesting person with you. And yet I constrain myself beyond all the things that I think are interesting. So I realized I could just break up with that set of rules, I could stop being so small, and I can start to share my whole self with you. Because I think you my clients share their whole selves with me. We coach about their lives, sometimes their sexual sex lives, sometimes their love lives, sometimes their leadership, coaching is a full contact sport. And I want that in my relationship with people online. I want to be whole. So I’m breaking up with my brand and I’ll keep you posted. I want to be all of me with you. And I want to share the things I learned on the journey of being human. Not just the learning, the learning I have as a leader.

And I am super excited about our guests today. Our guest is an award winning leadership expert in human behavior. Her name is Lisa Marie Platske. And Lisa Marie lives on a farm in the bluegrass region of Kentucky in the United States of America, where she hosts corporate retreats and grows leaders and she’s received accolades from the White House, the United States Small Business Administration and the international alliance for women. And she is recognized as one of the top 100 women making a difference in the world. And she’s co authored or written seven books. So I am very, we’re excited to have Lisa Marie with me today.

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Welcome to the show.

Thank you. Thanks, Melanie, I’m delighted to be here.

It’s great to have you here. Thanks for Thanks for being here. Well, and and I think that we are doing this book club thing this year, we committed to talking about my book, The experimental leader. And we were this month, we’re talking about chapter seven, the feedback loop variable. And I know before we were talking on the show, and you’re like, Oh, I read it, and I had these thoughts. What did you what what were your thoughts, when you read this chapter.

It was just, I was like, This is my chapter, this is such a great chapter. Because what you what you wrote about was listening and sharing and connecting and defining that as a feedback loop. And the more that we have that in our lives, the better our work can be, the better our relationships can be, the better the people around us can be. And so even even the beginning part of the chapter dictatorship versus innovation, what was fascinating to me is, when I looked at it through the lens of how I view leadership, or the work that I do, you have to have the foundational principle or premise that people are valuable. And that will matter in order for a feedback loop to work. If you don’t believe that people matter, or, or that they have any value, then you can’t actually have a successful feedback loop. So it was it was just it was exquisite. And the other part that I really loved was when you brought in the vulnerability, because that for me, is is one of the elements of courageous leadership and the work that I do. So it was just it was exquisite.

And I well, I think it’s really interesting. And and I can read, let me just read just the first paragraph, and I think it will help people be on the same page with you. If you want to get something done fast. dictatorship is a great strategy. Dictators decide quickly and order people to implement their decisions. Dictatorship can work well if the path is clear, and the goals are certain. But if you want to do something that has never been done before, then you want as many ideas as possible to foster a culture of innovative thinking. And you’ll want to access those ideas through productive communication. The quality of the ideas in your organization, is directly related to the quality of conversations that happen in your company. Listening to sharing and commenting on one of one another’s ideas, is what I call a feedback loop. Dictators don’t want or need them. But as an experimental leader, fostering feedback loops is is an important part of creating a climate of incremental innovation. Yeah, I think I think it’s really interesting. I’ve been thinking lately, and I don’t know what you think of this. But I’ve been thinking lately about like, what would happen if we all just ask each other, like five layers of questions? Like, I noticed how often people like ask each other a couple of questions socially, and then they like, it’s like, they’ve touched a red hot poker and they run away. And so I’ve, I’ve actually been wondering if there’s like, a blog article or podcast or something that’s like, called five questions where you could just like, like, if you were having a conversation with someone, you could say, well, what’s under that, like, keep going deeper, instead of stopping?

Well, that for me is intimacy. And, you know, connection. True, you know, true connection requires intimacy. And yet for many people, I would say in business, what I’ve found is probably less than 5% of the people that I’ve ever met are really great at connection are really great at being able to be comfortable enough with the space of what might possibly show up in conversation. What might actually be said, if you actually asked questions that were the unusual or the a typical questions what what would they not so much, what did they learn, but the greater part of what what would show up that would have me be affected by whatever it is that I heard. And so I don’t know that I’ve witnessed a lot of people dance around topics versus actually dive into them.

I love that language that you just said of what would show up. I don’t know if I’ve heard that before. Like, what would show up if you asked questions, because you’re right things show up. I noticed sometimes politics show up. And that’s when I kind of run away from because I don’t, I’m always afraid our relationship might get harmed if the politics aren’t the same. But I’m wondering what else would show up that you might that I might run away from right, you tend to run away? I know, I noticed I run away from Republican politics. Yes, no, I run away from because mostly not because I’m not willing to have a conversation. But because I’m unwilling to have a conversation where I won’t get heard. And I’m unwilling. I find myself with people who will keep sort of battering at me until I agree with them. And I won’t agree with them either. What conversations do you back away from?

Well, that’s been one of the things that I really have worked on over the last, I would say, probably four or five years, Melanie, is can I hold enough space for myself to really dance in the discomfort? Can I hold enough space and be the kind of leader that can do that. And when you spoke about what comes up for your clients in terms of, there’s conversations about relationship or sex, or conversations about their families, or all parts of who they are, know, there’s a responsibility in that to to say, for me, not not a responsibility in general, but a responsibility for me to say, what are the things that may provoke something in me that I have got to look at so that I can, can, can sit in the discomfort when somebody else is sharing those things with me. And so, you know, what I can tell you is that years, I can tell you is where I, where I would be really uncomfortable years ago was when I started my business, I recognized that I didn’t have the pedigree, so to speak, you know, I didn’t have the, the My background is in federal law enforcement. And so because I didn’t have the degree in business or leadership, well, in the, in the manner in this in this in this schooling, and the degree that I, you know, thought was the right pedigree, I recognize that for me, I’m an applied scientist, I try things out, and they work or they don’t work and, and that’s how I’ve had my experiences in life, and what allowed me to be able to excel, but I would back away from that I would hide from that I wouldn’t. You know, there were places where in being vulnerable, it was like, here’s the script. And we’re gonna stick to that script. And we’re not going to talk about anything else. And now really, it’s the gamut, you know, you want to talk about the six sets of step parents I have you want to growing up, you want to talk about the fact that I’ve experienced various levels of abuse physically, emotionally, sexually, you want to have the conversations about there’s, by me looking at all of that stuff, there’s really not a lot that will take me off course, or have me feel uncomfortable, because I’ve looked at all of this stuff in my life. And so I can hold space in conversations. You mentioned, politics used to be a place that definitely I wouldn’t go. And now, after the last presidential election in the United States, I have a friend who votes very, very differently than I do. And two days after the election, we sat down over dinner, and we had a long conversation about here’s why I voted this way. Here’s why I can’t imagine why you would vote for that person. I can’t imagine why you would vote for that person. And having us have the conversation in very differing backgrounds and lives. To be able to foster growth and learning and evolution and I’m not a fan of tolerance because I think that there’s it’s a really weird word for really acceptance and love. And so years ago, for me, it was all about how much knowledge someone had now it’s, you know, how much how much love do they have in their heart to be able to lead? Well, so it’s a great question, and it has me, you know, really be an examination of the places I’ve been.

Yeah, I think I think I think it’s really interesting. And as you’re talking, I noticed, so I have a queer identity. And so I noticed one of the places that’s really hard for me to be with is around politics and someone having a political stance that wants to harm my family. And it’s one of the reasons I don’t engage, because either I feel pretty protective of my family, as most people do. And so, so it’s not actually not wanting to be with it, it’s not wanting to fight about it. So it’s an interesting, like, I could be with it, but we’re not going to be close anymore. I don’t want to harm relationship with things I don’t want to know, or query too deeply. Because I do really value having disparate viewpoints and my friend sets, but I don’t want to know, every single thing my Republican friends think, because it’s not safe for me to know all the things. So if it’s something like, you know, like, I have friends who didn’t vaccinate, or, you know, I want a different candidate that I want, I’m really curious about wine. In fact, I queried some of them and have them send in their answers to me privately. And I posted them on my Facebook page, and deleted any negative posts, my liberal friends posted, just to give like, I wanted there to be some discourse, I wanted actual, like, sharing of ideas. And I found it really fascinating. You know, it was after Trump got elected in 2016. And I wanted to know why they voted for him. And I felt better actually, because they were smart people who had a different choice than I had. And, and it was really interesting to hear. And I went, Okay, because I think people like I listened to the left, and they listen to the right, and people forget to listen to different viewpoints.

And this is what your feedback loop, like, that’s what I got from the chapter was really, in fact, there was a question that I wrote down, that I was like, That is brilliant. And I am going to ask that, and it was, I think you can help me improve. And when I read that, it was, What if every conversation came from the lens of I think you can help me improve? And so it doesn’t mean that I have to necessarily do what it is that you’re gonna give to me. It’s when do I believe this can help me improve? And if it if I believe that, after you’ve shared something with me that I don’t believe that that can help me from prove like, it’s really not? Yeah, then then I’m gonna give that back to you and just go, you know, like, yeah, like, it’s not, it’s, it’s not, it’s not mine, based on all of the other value set, or what it is that I have. That part was. You also said something that I will in the chapter that I will sometimes reflect on when when someone speaks about leadership, and it’s the journey isn’t for the faint of heart. And when I actually saw you use it, I’m like, That’s language that comes out of my mouth often. And people will say to me, what do you mean by that? What does that mean? And it’s because this is, the more this is the more confrontational, not confrontation, and being a bad thing where you’re like, you’re you’re really, but you have to be willing to be in the listening with things that you may not want to hear. And so I think you can help me improve. And I thought, Wow, if I have that, really as as the the intention to hold, I wonder what would show up? So much like you had your five questions, I wonder it would show up like that, for me was, I wonder what would show up if that were the intention for every conversation?

I level we’re talking about the idea that there’s levels layers of feedback and information and that there, it’s like, it’s like, I don’t know. I mean, the the image is coming to mind is like a gas, you know, you’re putting gas in the car, and you can squeeze something to decide how much flow you want. Because when I do 360s, with like, executive teams, or whatever, I sometimes write my own questions because I want it to be more soft. The feedback that they get, sometimes I don’t want them to get I have tools that are cold, hard truth tools, that will give them like, like a tsunami of information. Sometimes I just want them to get a few ideas for where they might look. And then I’ll like write five questions that are like, open to answer and they’ll get some ideas without that huge heavy process, I don’t want anybody to get harmed by feedback either, which isn’t I don’t think in my chapter, but I think that too much solicited feedback like 360s, I think, I think some organizations go too far with 360s. And there are people can get really hurt by them, especially because if you always have to have a positive and a growing edge, what if you’re spectacular? Like why do you always have to have 50% of the feedback be your challenges? Because sometimes you’re really good?

Well, I think it goes back to the gas pump, and the layers. And so somebody who’s really good, and their evolution is going to be different than somebody who may be a bit greener in a particular area or something like that. 360s are such an interesting topic. Because for me what I recognized when, so my first time having a 360 was 24 years ago, and I remember it really clear, like and give you the the, you know, the timeframe because of the experience of it. So, so it’s like, you know, it’s not like, you know that? Absolutely, absolutely. And it was it was a you know, the assessment had 120 544 Questions like it was, it was it was, you know, it was massive, it was just massive. And I received, when I got the feedback from my peers and my subordinates, it was similar, more similar to what I how I had scored myself, my immediate supervisor, it was useless because it was literally 100. And like, 44 fives, which was I knew I was smart enough to understand that that wasn’t true. And so that was a five out of five. Yeah, five out of five. Yeah. And so that was like, Okay, well, that’s not helpful. And the one that was the shocking one, and the one that really had me, kind of take a deep breath and put me on this journey, actually, with leadership was with my boss’s boss’s boss’s boss. Because when I got back, this is somebody who had promoted me, sent me on assignments had had really in the in the in law enforcement world had recognized me, and, you know, had given me opportunities that were unique. So when I got it back, and I saw the twos and threes, I was like, the hack, like, what is this? And what I find to be so fascinating about what you just said about people getting harmed is that feedback on a form like that, like a 360 is only as good as the trained facilitator. And how good that trained facilitator actually explains the results in a way that you can digest it and make a choice, you know, to to make a change to effect something different. So how its presented. And so for me, that didn’t happen in a way that allowed me to understand it, what it had me do was go, you know, what’s, what’s going on here? And then two weeks for me to go in and have an appointment. And sit down with my boss’s boss’s boss’s boss. To which case, as I explained why I was there. And she said, You didn’t think that you were perfect. Now, did you lease? And I was like, Well, yeah, you send me all of these, these assignments, we ended up having a conversation. And it was the most exquisite experience in that. There was only one, two, I didn’t, I didn’t see that there were fours. I didn’t see them. And why I say that is because sometimes when you get stuck in something isn’t explained to you, you see the thing that’s the negative, you don’t see the thing that is that you’re doing well, you don’t balance it out with what you’re doing incredibly well. And so you need someone to actually go okay, let’s take an honest look at it. Let’s take an inventory. Let’s look at why these scores might be showing up. And so she gave me an opportunity to say I gave you that because I want you to improve. And I gave you that so you could understand where are the potential pitfalls and the minds in your career trajectory. And for me, that’s not what was explained to me it was like you’re bad if you get this and you’re good if you get this and so I knew enough to understand that all five It was wasn’t helpful. But I didn’t understand really that the whole purpose for something if somebody really takes an assessment, in the way in which it’s designed is that somebody has the ability to say, you get this score, because I want you to learn something from it, I want you to be able to look at what the missing skill set is here in order for you to improve. And so for me, I remember it 24 years ago, because I had to get to the place of sifting through all of that. And it took me several weeks. And when she said that, you know, you didn’t think you were perfect. I was like, Well, you know, in my almost arrogant high horse, and at the same time, she was really pushing the button to see like, what are you? What are you seeing here? What are you noticing, and it was it led me down a road to have me look at things that I don’t believe I otherwise would have looked at. Because at the time, I wasn’t a great team player at the time, I wasn’t a great communicator at the time, I wasn’t a great listener. And so going back to the dictatorship, where we started, you know, if this is the idea, and it’s the best idea, you can go fast, but who’s going with you like no one, so. So it was incredibly valuable. Because I didn’t necessarily have the facilitator who who actually shared that, but she allowed me to have that experience.

It’s, it’s such an interesting 360s are such a gamble. There’s such it’s like riding a bucking bronco, you might emerge with a, you know, life changing positive experience, you might end up in a corner rocking yourself, you know, because you’ve been harmed. Because the feedback was too heavy and too hard and too nebulous and not specific enough, and not actionable enough, and you don’t know how to fix it, and you don’t trust your colleagues. You know, it really is, it’s an interesting and they may be too frequent, so that you never get your feet again afterward and you and people and people call you out for not being nice in the workplace where you’re doing really good work. And people are, you know, think you should do it with a smile on your face all the time, whether you’re a man or a woman, you know. It’s an interesting, it’s interesting feedback. That is that, you know, the fact that you’re frazzled, because you’ve just taken on three people’s jobs. And now you’re cranky. You the feedback you get is not Hey, thank you for taking on three people’s jobs, it’s, well, you’re really showing some frustration at work. And you really need to work on that. Not oops, you’re doing three people’s jobs, we better take some of that off your plate. So I find them very, as a as a coach who’s worked with them for you know, over 20 years, I find them I find them problem Matic and sometimes useful, and I find them dangerous. I find them dangerous. I’ll say that. I find them dangerous. I think 360s are a little dangerous, but can be valuable. I don’t know I you know, I sell them on occasion and do them and debrief them and but always with a good dose of kindness because it’s Wow. Yeah. I want to switch to you and what you’re up to and your life and leadership. It was really fun to dive into all of that. What are you up to in your life and leadership and work right now? Oh, what

Well, 16 months ago, I moved to a farm Melanie and that is truly then quite the experiments. I was not looking at moving to a farm and was definitely not on my on my top 10 List having lived in all really more major cities, you know, the New York and Miami and LA and Dallas and DC and so larger metropolitan areas to move into the farm and so this has been definitely an experiment. Right now I’m busy building a client portal and creating systems and processes that allow my life to be simpler and easier. And not easy but easier. There’s a difference there’s a difference. And really looking at the the retreats with people I’m being more about personal leadership and understanding that personal leadership affects how you show up at work.

How’d you end up on a farm in Kentucky? I love Kentucky by the way, every time I drive by drive through Kentucky, because I like to go on road trips. I just am so I think it’s so beautiful.

It I happen to love it. I did never ever ever in a 10 million years if you would have given me massive amounts of money and said Are you going to ever move there? My answer to you have been no not because I had a negative thing. But just because it wasn’t even in my you know, in the the idea of me moving there so my husband was literally had an opportunity in Kentucky for work. He was there I was there with him. We stayed at an Airbnb the Airbnb was the owner said was for sale. I thought that’s nice, who cares. And as we were there, I was like, this is for us. Like I literally, I since I’ve been a little girl, I sometimes get voices, the Holy Spirit will give me messages. And I got this message like you heal the land the land, they’ll hear leaders and I’m like, who’s going to heal what land and like, who was gonna be? Who, what, what are we talking about here, and this is yours. What’s mine like I truly was like, This is the craziest thing in the world and got into the car on the way home. We were both in agreement that we needed to do this. And so after six days and the Airbnb piece called my friend that was a realtor put an offer in and the rest is history moved out to the farm and don’t have any animals there other than you know, the ones that are naturally part of the property, you know, haven’t gotten any have done a lot of work on the trees and on. The previous owners had like garbage dumps and like things that were, I guess hidden. And so there’s been a lot of cleaning out a lot of cleaning out and we were hit hard in the tornado several times and a flood and just a lot of cleanup. And at the same time it’s been, it’s been exactly where I am to be. Melanie would love this. I actually don’t have internet at the farm. So I am sitting at the public library, which is why there’s a fire extinguisher above my head, which I you know, can block out every so often but during the duck and chase here and so…

When Is that intentional that you don’t have internet it

Is not intentional, the previous owner had internet and it was not available for for us and you cannot get it. You cannot legally get internet there. And so there is no option for it. And I totally did. Oh no, no, I Yes, you. I’ve been on that list since we moved in. And oh, yeah. And it’s not. And I have two friends that own internet companies. And they both have said you’re in what’s called the dead zone. Lisa. So my bit my business coach said to me, Well, clearly God doesn’t want you to have internet and I’m like, clearly.

That’s so crazy.

So when I got your message, I was like, yes, the public library is…

There’s a library? That’s so funny. And what’s next for you? What will you be experimenting with next?

You know, experimenting with and next is there’s a program that I’ve been wanting to do and I you know, I don’t really know how I don’t do an experiment called upside warrior. So my business is upside thinking and so upside warriors, this idea of the warrior mindset and so physically, emotionally, spiritually, intellectually financially relationally like all of those places pieces that sometimes you need a sword and sometimes you need a feather and sometimes you know you just you need to be able to distinguish the two and so I met with a gentleman from Canada a friend of mine who’s put on some challenge courses and I’ve been looking at this you know I host retreats and so I’ve it’s been a piece for me  Looking at you know what will that be one of the elements next and then you know, books and this and that there’s a lot of I do my best to not have bright shiny objects Melanie but like to go okay like Is this mine and it’s like, but yeah, this is my now you now you go over here. Oh, this is my now experiment here. This is a lot of that.

Well, it sounds like it sounds like you’re having fun on the farm. Yeah. How can people find you Lisa Marie?

They can find me on Facebook. And they can find with which is Lisa Marie Platske. And they can find me at www.upsidethinking.com my website.

That’s amazing. Thank you so much for being on my show. It’s really, it’s really been lovely to spend time with you.

And the same. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

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it’s been so fun being here with you today on our third anniversary. And I really want to encourage you to look inside and think about what conversations do you run away from? And also how do you go deeper? How do you ask one more questions sit with what is listen more carefully to the feedback loops in your life. Hear people take what they say. Use it if it’s useful, let it go if it isn’t, and incorporate the depth of conversation into your life into your leadership. This is Melanie Parish. It’s been great being with you today. Go experiment.

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Lisa Marie Platske

An award-winning leadership expert in human behavior, Lisa Marie Platske has received accolades from the White House, the United States Small Business Administration, and The International Alliance for Women, recognized as one of the top 100 women making a difference in the world.

She left her Federal law enforcement career to be the CEO of an international leadership development company, Upside Thinking, Inc.

Lisa Marie delivers presentations worldwide sharing research on how vulnerability and forgiveness are critical to exceptional leadership — as well as her proven 7-step leadership model centered on connection, positioning, and executive presence. An international best-selling author in 5 countries, Lisa Marie has written or co-authored 7 books.

A member of the Forbes Coaches Council and a regular contributor to Forbes.com, she has trained or coached over 100,000 leaders around the globe to make a bigger positive impact on the planet since 2005. She lives on Summit Hills Farm in the Bluegrass Region in KY where she runs her online business without internet access.

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