The show’s guest in this episode is Bryna Haynes. She’s the founder and CEO of World Changers Media, a boutique publishing company focused on delivering quality transformational nonfiction by, and for, the next generation of thought leaders. She is located in Rhode Island, is a mom of two impetuous fairy-princess-dragon-tamers, and has a slightly dangerous obsession with kickass boots.

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Experimenting with Being ALL of Who You Are as a Leader with Bryna Haynes

Hello, and Happy International Women’s Day. It is great to be here live with you on the experimental leader Podcast. I’m so happy to be here. And I’ve been thinking about my own leadership today. My own life really. But it’s interesting on International Women’s Day to think about what it’s like to be a mom, and a wife, and a business owner and a coach. And all of the things I just got home after being in New Mexico with my son who was swimming for two months, and, and it’s just really interesting to come home. Like, it’s great to be home. And then, you know, I had some, like, back of my mind fears I left right after right before New Year’s, and I thought, oh, no, what if I come home and the Christmas trees still up? My husband did a great job of putting most of the Christmas decorations away.

So I’m finding some around to put in a pile to get back in the basement. But it’s it’s interesting that I don’t just walk into work. There’s always like, a lot of other people around in my life that I’m thinking about, what are their schedules? What are their lives like, and after I get all that handled, then I get to show up for work and be with my clients and be with teams and do all of that. So I just am so cognizant of that as a reality for so many women today. And the statistics are, you know, quite clear on the work that women do in the home, as they’re doing all of the work that they do in their in their work as well. And so I want to celebrate all of that I want to celebrate the diversity of women’s lives. The balance that we often that we often continue, like a balance is a continual part of the lives of the women that I know my women clients, my women friends, my women family, as they have successful careers. So I just want to note that today. And I want to challenge you to think about where you’re in balance and where you’re out of balance right now. And what would be three things that you could do today that would help restore balance for you in your lives.

 And today, I am super excited to talk to Bryna Haynes. She’s the founder and CEO of World Changers Media, which is a boutique publishing company. And it’s focused on delivering quality transformational nonfiction, by and for the next generation of thought leaders. Bryna is located in Rhode Island and she’s a mom of two impetuous fairy princess dragon tamers. And has a slightly dangerous obsession with kick ass boots.

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Bryna I am so happy to have you on my show today.

Thank you so much melody, it’s great to be here with you. And thank you for your acknowledgement of all of us who are mothers and business owners and leaders, and it is absolutely a balancing act.

Well, and it’s so interesting, and I think it’s interesting for us to talk about maybe for a second today, I don’t talk about it very often with you know, it’s like we just do it. We just are you know, it’s like oh yeah, I’m gonna get a little work in but in in between the time I take my kids to school and between the time I plan their lives and schedules and you know, my, my calendar with everybody’s, you know, multiple calendars with multiple things. My kids, I’ve choose kids who swim nine times a week. So, you know, they each have their own calendar that I can see and manage and it’s just so rare that I ever think or talk about that part of my life. And I don’t know about you, but I mean having impetuous fairy princess dragon Tamers can’t be easy. How old are they?

They are seven and four. And so we haven’t reached the stage of swim schedules and sports schedules yet although my oldest does do ballet. But we do we do home educate, which would only be possible and is only possible because of my mom. She’s a former early educator and she comes to our house to homeschool our kids and it is the best possible arrangement but I don’t I don’t know how some families actually manage. We are so lucky that we have a close family network within a very small geographical range. And I just don’t think that it would be possible for my husband and I as business owners to do what we do with the family without that level. have help. And it is a complete balancing act. My clients are very accustomed to my four year old coming in and, you know, bombing my Zoom calls sometimes naked. It’s okay, you know, and we’re all just doing our best here. And but it is something that we don’t talk about a lot.

Why don’t we talk about it?

I’m not sure. I think maybe there’s some vestige of like, it’s unprofessional to bring other parts of your life to work, which, you know, is complete BS, and 2020. Pretty much prove that for everybody, not just parents, but we need to be able to be all of ourselves in every situation. And so I don’t stop being a mom, just because I’m on Zoom calls with clients. And I don’t stop being a business owner when I’m, you know, playing Mario Party with my seven year old.

Really, like when I’m sitting in the stands, it’s with me, it’s I noticed how rare it is that anyone knows what I do. You know, I I noticed and this is this, like, can lead into that thought leader conversation like, are you actually ever a thought leader? You know, in those other parts of your life? When When are you when aren’t you? It is so interesting. I years ago, when we moved to Canada, this is literally 20 years ago, we had a bed and breakfast for three years. And for the next 15 years, probably it would still happen today. If we hadn’t been through two years of COVID My husband’s colleagues would see me and say, do you still have the bed and breakfast? Now I’ve been a coach for 20 years. But they remember that three years of bed and breakfast. Oh, you home with the kids? And it’s like, no, yeah, I’m home with the kids because I work at home, but I don’t. I’m not home with the kids. I’m like, I have a job. And it’s just I just think all these things are so interesting.

It really is. And I think that there’s a tendency for those of us who work in lead from home, because I’ve noticed this in my own life, like people who don’t know me through my work will be like, oh, you know, like, it’s almost like, and it’s not intentional. And it’s not. It’s not mean spirited. But it’s like, how’s that cute little business thing you’re doing going? And it’s like, well, you know, we’re, you know, we’re publishing Wall Street Journal bestsellers, and, you know, we’re crossing seven figures this year, how’s your business going? And there’s this, this, this kind of, I think 2020 alleviated this as well, for many, many people. But there, I think that there is a perception that those of us who work from home, or who create businesses that are, you know, for lack of a better term, like laptop lifestyle businesses, that it’s somehow less real than if we go park ourselves in an office. And thankfully, you know, again, that is changing. But, but that is something that that came up in conversation for a lot of years, you know, pre COVID was like, you know, it didn’t, it was like, it almost wasn’t substantial enough in the minds of people who didn’t know me through my work. And I think also, we don’t tend to talk about our work with people who know us outside of work. And so we, we kind of automatically create the separation. But again, we don’t stop being who we are, just because we’ve changed the situation. And so I think it’s an interesting conversation, I’d be curious to know how many people out there experienced this, where people don’t know what we do, or where they don’t feel that the business has the same gravity, if it’s not in a brick and mortar location. And it’s something that, you know, we’re just, we’re in the process of changing, it’s a new dynamic.

And I’m always surprised by how uncurious people are. I always kind of want to know what people do for a living because it helps me ground what their life might be like, I don’t know I’m since I, my whole stake in the ground is around people loving their work, I always kind of want to know where they’re at with that when I meet them. And there’s not much reciprocity. So you know, I’ve had so many conversations, usually with cisgendered white men, where I’m like, hey, what do you do? And they’re like, Oh, I do this and then they just never ask a question. And so I’m like, Well, okay. Let’s go back to talking about swimming or you know, whatever it is, but it is such an interesting it’s interesting. I think these are things that women, I don’t know I, when I get together with my my friends, I don’t necessarily want to talk about work. But it’s fun to get to sort of explore this with you. And I want to transition because you help people become thought leaders. Absolutely. And I’m now I’m getting really curious about your take on this. And, you know, how, how do we think about becoming thought leaders? And I mean, we can put the woman’s spin on it today as well, I think that’s an interesting place to look. And how does someone think about becoming a thought leader in the world?

Well, first, I’d like to define how I see thought leadership, which is probably a little different than most people do. But to me, we all kind of have a lens that we put on our work. And we have a lens that we put on everything in life, but  really, we have a lens that we put on our work. And most people when they begin whatever their career is, or whatever they decide, it’s going to be what they’re looking for that lens of expertise. So it’s, it’s like a very, it’s a narrow focus, like, I’m going to be the best at what I do in this my chosen niche. And I’m going to become an expert. And so I think that’s a great place to start, because it allows you to have real depth with your work. But thought leadership is actually it’s a reexpansion, in my mind. So if you think about it, this is the example I always use. And this is the one that seems to land because people will will understand it right away is that there are 1000s of psychology researchers on this planet, there is only one Brene Brown. And she’s not Brene Brown, because she’s a psychology researcher. She’s brought her life into the lens through which she views her work, and created something unique and inimitable. And so when we think about becoming thought leaders, which to me is like the the step that we take to even rise above expertise, where we’re not just we’re not just experts in a subject, we’re actually innovating in our subject, the only way that we can do that is to bring all of who we are into our work. And so the exclusion that we talked about earlier happens so frequently, like, even I mean, and I do this constantly, like I don’t always think about how motherhood and my the fact that I’m a mother impacts the way that I do and see my work. And yet it does. We don’t often think about, especially if we’ve made a big career transition, how our past experience in other fields, impacts the way that we see our work and our expertise. And yet, the only thing that’s going to set us apart from everyone else in our fields, is if we incorporate all of these things that truly make us unique, the way we see the world, the way we see ourselves, the way we think about life and purpose and why we’re here, the sometimes random seeming skill sets that we’ve accumulated over the years that when you put them all in combination, it’s completely unique. And no one else is going to see your work the way that you see it when you expand your view to include all of who you are. And so it’s really about how do I become a leader and innovator in my fields, by being more of who I already am. It’s not something that we can strive for outside of ourselves, like expertise is that right? We can strive for what we don’t already know, we can, you know, chase after the knowledge and the experience, and the metrics and all of that. And all of that is great. But the thought leader piece happens when we allow ourselves to put the full impact of us and see our work through that. And it lends itself to purpose. It lends itself to innovation, it lends itself to out of the box thinking and creativity. And it also again provides a way that we can be completely unique in our work because no one else is going to have the same experiences or lens that we have.

Well, it’s interesting because I went through this I had a book that came out in April of 2020. And I have to say that going through the so I’ll preface this by saying I actually started a book. It took me about seven years to write that book. And right before I wrote that book, I I started another book that was kind of a Kochi kind of, you know, live your best life kind of book. And I actually had a client who had a New York Times Best Selling ghostwriter who looked at it and was like Melanie, you don’t have any ideas in here. Like You can’t just be a coach, like you actually have to come up with a thing, you have to have things you say. And I thought that was so interesting. So I ditched the whole thing. I mean, I just went well, okay, back to the drawing board. And I was so grateful to her for being, you know, just so confident and in ideas that she could see that I didn’t have any, because she sent me back to the drawing board. And I got this seed of an idea for the experimental leader, I knew the title the entire time, I was working on it, I knew what the book was. But going through the process of writing that book, and really, in the last in the last two years after it came out, I learned even more about the thinking of it as people would ask me questions, and I would get more solid in that sort of experimental leader world I created. And the ideas are actually still really interesting to me. And, and the expansion of those ideas is still really interesting to me, what does it take to lead experimentation? As opposed to what, you know, a lot of the book is about how do you do experimentation? But then there’s a whole extra layer of how do you lead experimentation?

I love it. I love it. And I think, you know, it’s, it’s very interesting that you get to be in that process, in your business in your work, and really living as an example to your clients and your audience about how this plays out in real life. You know, it’s, it’s really very cool. And I think stepping into thought leadership in any aspect is really about experimental thinking. What? So I’ll give you an example from my own journey. So when I first started my writing business, it was 2006, I believe. And I had no prior experience, I just knew that I always wanted to write, I was tired of what I was doing at the time. I was a color educator and master stylist of the salon here in Providence, Rhode Island. It was so much fun, I still have clients that I talked to I loved the people i The work was incredibly creative. But I knew it wasn’t what I was meant to be doing. And so I tossed it all out the window, and I have a sign on my door that said editor, and I went to work. And one of the things that happened was, as I dove into expertise, and the reason I started editing is because I wanted to be a better writer, because I really my goal at that point was to finish the epic fantasy novel I had been working on for a bajillion years, right. And so I dove into my expertise. And I found myself excluding all of these parts of myself, that actually, in the end could have contributed to a quicker growth spiral. Like, for example, I ended up squarely in the nonfiction arena, which I absolutely adore. Because it’s where I do all my best work. for about 10 years, I didn’t feel like I could admit that in my spare time when I’m not working. The only thing I read is epic fantasy. And so then I started looking at, wow, you know, these two arenas have a lot to teach one another. And so now when we’re looking at book structure, from a transformational nonfiction perspective, what we’re looking at is world building, we’re looking at story development, we’re looking at character development, it translates so beautifully. But I had completely shut the door on that conversation for a very long time, because I didn’t feel it looked professional as a nonfiction editor to admit that I loved reading about dragons, right? So there’s this, there’s this tendency that we have to say, oh, that doesn’t fit. And we push it out of the way in in favor of chasing after the current definition of expert. And actually, that’s backwards. Because the current definition of expert is defined by the thought leaders in the field being who they are not by everybody conforming to this narrow pathway that says, you know, editors have to be this way business coaches have to be this way. Business leaders have to be this way CEOs can only do this right. And so we’re what we’re trying to do is we’re we’re trying to be acceptable as an expert in our field and at the same time, we’re limiting the potential for thought leadership when we shut aspects of ourselves out. Like that is so interesting.

My husband has a couple of books, but one is a publisher came to me and said, Hey, your works really interesting. He’s a professor and he, they said your works really interesting. Do you want to read a textbook? And he was like, hey, coincidentally, I’m writing a textbook. And he, he said, I really want to write a textbook, that’s a developmental psychology textbook from an evolutionary point of view. And they went, Oh, okay, yeah. And then they sign the contract. And then the acquisitions editor leaves the publisher. And then he starts to submit stuff in there. And then they start to take out all the evolutionary stuff, and they start to tell him, oh, we need to edit that out, because all these other textbooks don’t do that. And then finally, the editor says, well, we don’t want to write in a developmental textbook from an evolutionary point of view. And he’s like, go look at the contract. Like, it’s literally what we’re doing. And so they got the first edition published, and then the next time, they did it again, and he eventually just ended up getting the rights back and, and taking on the publishing himself. Because it was so innovative, that they wouldn’t do it, because it didn’t conform to what was already out there. And never mind that he had, you know, so many amazing researchers who loved his innovative textbook, and he is still quite proud about it, it’s still quite an innovative piece of work in the world, developing people in a new way in developmental psychology. So it’s, it’s, it’s so interesting how that publishing, author marriage works, I’d love for you to talk a little bit about that, and what you guys do?

Absolutely. So that you basically summed up the the issue that’s happening, I don’t want to say across the board, because I never want to generalize, but but I see it happening a lot in the world of traditional publishing. And I can only imagine that it’s, it’s just as bad or worse in academia. So what has happened in publishing is that, you know, obviously, companies exist to make money. And especially with the advent of self publishing, and the possibility for self publishing, publishers have had to really lock down on, you know, securing contracts that they believe will sell. And so what happens is, publishers are looking for ideas that are marketable to the current market. And so it becomes an echo chamber in many ways, and it’s not nurturing the next generation of ideas and thought leaders. I mean, can you imagine if, you know, George Orwell, or Sylvia Plath, or any of the groundbreaking authors from the 20th century had been vetted through a marketing machine that said, Will people buy this? The answer would have been an unequivocal No, because the public wasn’t ready for it when it came out. But they became ready for it as the book went out and did its job. And so, you know, when it comes to, to working with authors and ideas, I’ve kind of landed in this middle space, because I’ve worked with authors who have traditionally published I mean, I’ve been in this business over 15 years now. And I’ve worked with authors who have self published and when I created world changers media, it was to stand in the middle to give authors the incredible editorial support that they receive at traditional publishers, the idea development, the, you know, really creating the best possible product, but in a format where they own all of their own rights and royalties. Because it’s not, it’s not the best practice, in my opinion, to look at marketability, from the perspective of what we perceive the public will buy, or even what we perceive the public needs. I mean, what matters to me is that the author can fully put their energy and their the weight of their conviction behind the project. And when that happens, that is the thing that matters most, because honestly, when you can put your energy behind it, you can bark at anything. I mean, there’s a woman on tick tock selling her farts, you know, like, Come on, let’s be real here. If you believe in it, and you are willing to put your energy behind it and put it out there, you can sell it. And so what matters most to us when we’re talking about working with authors is really, is the idea transformational? Does the idea have legs? Is this going to be a positive force for impact in the world? And of course, we have processes to make sure that it does its job for the reader and to help the author market it in the most aligned way possible. But it’s not a question of whether people are going to instantly be on board with an idea It’s more does the world need this. And I think it’s an important distinction. And also, because of the way we’re set up, we’re not doing, you know, the venture capital model of publishing, which is, you know, what’s been done for, you know, over 100 years, really, since the inception of the industry is that big print runs at the beginning, Let’s gamble and see how many books we sell. Yes, it’s an educated guess. But it’s still a financial risk for a publisher. And publishers are becoming less and less willing to take a financial risk on a new author, or on an idea that isn’t an automatic sell. So it’s really interesting dynamic. And I’m seeing it happen in the music industry, too, because I know a lot of people in music, and I’m a lifelong musician, myself. And, you know, it used to be that, you know, if you went and played with your, you know, I used to play guitar in coffee shops for a living for a little while, as a late teenager. And, you know, if you were in the right place at the right time, someone would come and discover you, and then you would be given a chance to have an impact on a larger scale, that doesn’t happen anymore. It’s like, you know, if you want to have the level of support that Beyoncé has, you need to already be Beyoncé. And if you have to get there on your own, why would you give away, you know, 90% of your royalties at that point? That’s so yeah, it’s an interesting place to be right now, because the industry is changing so much so fast. But I think you know, what your husband experienced, is incredibly common. Yeah. And actually, you know, has a lot of authors feeling left out in the cold.

It was a really disorienting process for him to have to continue to fight for his innovative idea with his partner in business, essentially. Yeah, I want to move and I warned you, I was gonna ask you this. So my book came out in April 2020. And we did you know, it did, okay, it’s done fine. I wanted to have an opportunity to express thoughts to take up. As a coach, I rarely get to, I don’t speak as much as I asked good questions. So I wanted an opportunity for my ideas to have a place to live. And my book was a good place for that. And we did lots of marketing stuff, you know, at the beginning, but I’m curious to hear from you sort of that longer game of having a book having the idea of sharing thoughts into the world? How should I be thinking about it now?

That’s such a good question. So I think the approach is really unique for every author. And it really is multifaceted. So a lot of people, when they write a book, they fixate on launch. And launch is important. But I think about launch as like going to the hospital to have the baby, right. And you still have a whole baby to raise, you know, like you still have, you know, years of support and that support over the years, if you do it right, becomes less and less and less until the book becomes its own independent entity, and can do its work in the world without a whole lot of input from you. Right, that’s, that’s the goal that I see. And I kind of communicate to all of our authors, it’s a long game. And so depending on your goals, because really, it has to be tailored to your goals for your business, and for your impact in the world. So a lot of my authors will leverage their books for, for more visible and more lucrative speaking engagements, and actually workbook sales into their speaking contracts, it’s a really good way to get the book in a lot of hands really quickly and easily. Like I’m speaking to 500 people, part of my speaking fee is that all 500 of those people need to have a book on their seat. So that’s a really good one that a lot of people don’t think of right away. Um, and then there are, you know, ongoing visibility strategies, everything from, you know, doing podcast interviews, right, great way to communicate your big ideas and have real conversations about it in a way that people could connect with on a personal level. And just making sure that everyone you speak to knows you have a book, because sometimes we forget, right? It’s like, oh, what I Oh, and I have this this book, right? It’s like let it be a part of everything that you do. And always be directing people back to that as the resource for them to introduce themselves to your ideas. Because to me, that’s really what a book is meant to do is to be an ambassador for your ideas. And, you know, a lot of people come to me and they’re like, Yeah, I want to do a lead gen book. And I’m like, no, no, no, no, no. And the reason for that is that books are a different animal than any other kind of marketing. And this is why people get so confused, because they want to treat a book the same way they treat their YouTube channel and their lead magnets, and you know, all of the other things, but a book is different. A book is something that someone is going to sit down with, and spend five to 15 hours or more, cuddled up with engaging with, and at the end of it, what do we want to leave them with. And so, the book, if it’s designed to communicate your ideas, as though you’re having a conversation with a friend, as though you’re just pouring out your passion for your topic, in a conversation, like the one we’re having now. And that conversation is designed to lead the reader to an outcome, and solve a problem, or change the way that they think about something in their world, they will remember that gift forever. Like, have you ever read a book, and you, you feel so connected to the author, maybe you’ve never even seen a picture of this person, right? And you read it, and you feel so connected to them, that you talk about them, like they’re your friends, and you tell all your friends about them, you know, and, and it’s, it’s, it’s just amazing, because you feel like you have this very intimate exchange. To me, that is the goal that we want to meet with every book that we produce. And so treating it as a typical lead magnet is actually counterproductive, because you’re asking people to engage with something, not as a gift that they’re giving you, but as a gift that you’re giving them. Yeah. And so leaning into that, as a strategy is counterintuitive to most marketing techniques we’ve been taught, but it really does produce the best long term results. How do I offer this as a gift to every person in the world who needs it? You start asking questions like that you get very different answers about strategy. And I think that, to me, is the best place to begin.

I really love that. And it my book is one of the things I’m most proud of, in the world. Like, it’s, it’s the it’s the most of me that I ever could give someone. I love it. And, and, and it is. So few people read it’s so interesting. It’s like, it’s like, I know, I can change their life. I know I can offer value, but they have to open the pages. And they have to read it. And and so I always just get so excited when people take a minute and read my book and or, you know, how many five to 15 hours.

On people’s reading.

I often get the comment, you know, when they get to the end, they’re like, Okay, now I feel like I have to go back and start again. Yeah, I didn’t want it to be one of those books where there was a great concept in the first chapter and then nothing else.

So absolutely no, that drives me nuts. Yeah, you know, overview Yes, complete front loading.

Not so much. Oh, yeah. So cool. I’m Bryna where can people find you?

Everybody can find me at www dot world changers dot media. And I don’t do you know, the typical like lead magnet download, I really want to have conversations face to face with anybody who’s interested in learning more about thought leadership books. So there’s a link right on my homepage, you can book a call with me and we can chat about anything book related, you want to talk about?

Oh, that’s amazing. Thank you so much for being on the show. It’s it’s just been fabulous to get to chat with you and to pick your brain and to hear all of your thoughts about becoming how people become thought leaders.

Thank you so much for your time today. It was wonderful to have this conversation with you. And thanks to everyone who’s listening.

Great, thank you.

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Well, it was fantastic to talk to Bryna today about the idea of thought leadership, the idea that you can put your ideas out into the world as something substantial. And I think this is such an interesting thing for people it’s one of the bases of how I work with leaders. Coaching is to find out how they want to impact the world, and what they uniquely offer to their profession. So it isn’t just about being good at your job. That’s like sort of the fair value exchange for your job. It isn’t about being outstanding at your job, but it’s about becoming an expert, and then actually a thought leader contributor in your field. And if you have that orientation, I love that she talks about this. That orientation is so powerful for career development. So I’d love for you to think about this week, I’d love for you to think about your career where you are on that journey from being good at something to being an expert, and then being a thought leader in your field. Kind of figure out for yourself. Have an honest conversation in your own mind about that for yourself. Figure out where you are and where you’d like to be with that. It’s been great being with you today. Go experiment

Important Links: 

• World Changers Media
• Bryna Haynes – LinkedIn
• Bryna Haynes – Facebook

Bryna Haynes

Bryna Haynes is the founder and CEO of WorldChangers Media.

As a nationally-known book strategist, speaker, ghostwriter, and editor, she has helped hundreds of thought leaders, teachers, healers, and enlightened entrepreneurs deliver their messages and radically up level their expert status through best-selling, impact-driven books.

Learn more about Bryna and her work at www.worldchangers.media.

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