Land Acknowledgement A Concert

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Explore the synergy of leadership, indigenous music, and the power of apologies. Join the conversation on land acknowledgment, nature-inspired music, and the unique perspectives of indigenous composers. Delve into water conservation and the transformative nature of music. Discover the voices and stories shaping the orchestra’s future. This episode unites leadership, culture, and the magic of music.

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Harmonizing Leadership and Music

Hi, everybody. I’m Melanie Parish, and welcome to The Experimental Leader Podcast. I’m one of your hosts.

I’m Mel Rutherford. And I’m also one of your hosts. Thanks for coming here today.

Well, I’ve been thinking, you know, when we think about doing our podcast, one of the things that I started doing, oh, a couple of years ago, was to start trying to have interesting guests. And and some of that was to not have just the same, you know, 60 year old white men on our podcast all the time, I wanted to share our platform with all sorts of voices, so queer voices, women, voices, people of color. And today, I am so excited about the guests that we have on our show. Because we have indigenous composers coming on our show today. And it just feels like, you know, that I’ve been able to open to a variety of things. And and just to keep saying yes, so I’m super excited. And I feel like, I want to just keep saying yes to all that, you know, all that the world has to offer in terms of interesting perspectives, new perspectives, and just to keep learning.

And the people we’re having on today are a group of people that are meeting each other for the first time, and are preparing for a concert that’s coming up in our local community.

I know it’s, it’s kind of crazy. It’s all kind of crazy in our community, we’re gonna go to the concert. You and me, we’re gonna wear good shoes and look cute, and it’s gonna be fun. Our friendships go to, it’ll be fun. What are you thinking about in your leadership right now?

I am thinking about apologies. And thinking about the power of the apology, especially from a from a leadership perspective. Because, you know, as as leaders, we, we always try our best and we always try to do no harm. And sometimes we mess up. And sometimes we, we hurt people, unintentionally. And then, you know, people will come to us and say, I was unhappy when you did this. And I was offended when you did this. And we get our hackles up. And we want to say, well, you know, we might want to say, you know, I’m the boss. And so I can do whatever I want. Or we might want to double down and defend our decision and say, I did it because, you know, that ended up. But sometimes, the quickest way to heal is actually to start with the apology. Like, I hear you, I made a mistake. I’m sorry. I’m sorry, that that this impacted you the way it did, and I’m learning and thank you for bringing this to my attention. And then sometimes just starting with the apology is the quickest way to make sure make people know that you’re, you’re taking care of them and you’re you’re willing to listen.

Oh, that’s interesting. That’s an interesting thing to be thinking about.

But about you, what are you thinking about?

Well, I was thinking about that whole thing I said at the beginning about you know, bringing how who I bring on who we bring on the podcast and the work of it, it’s not easy, but I was also thinking about when you said apologies, I was thinking about like you know we’re married so how apologies flow you know, at home too. And and I guess it made me think that like, in the same vein that like apologies are so useful so is just getting over it. Like so is accepting the apology and so is like not like getting in a snit and just being mad. And so is just like having thick skin sometimes like all those things are really good for leadership to like, it’s not all about like I try to remember it’s not all about me like IT people are doing the best they can. That’s been my thought for the last kind of, you know, four years with COVID people are doing the best they can. I try to remind myself of that pretty regularly because I don’t think people always behave all that well. So I try to I think both I think it’s yes, and yes, apologies and, and I think you can’t demand an apology even though you want it sometimes.

I am super excited about our guests today. And I want to start by introducing Jeffrey Pollock. He’s a conductor who’s celebrated for his musical versatility, and captivating concert programming. He’s been recognized by the League of American orchestras, and Jeffrey has led prestigious orchestras across North America, such as the Detroit Symphony, Houston Symphony, and more. He’s also collaborated with virtuosic virtuoso artists, and made his mark in the world of opera. He’s now back as the musical director for some Bonilla Ancaster, where his talent continues to shine.

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Welcome to the show, Jeffrey Pollock.

Welcome to reality. Thank you, Melanie. Hello, Mel.

It’s great to have you here today. And I am super excited about a concert that you are doing this month. Tell us about that.

Sure. Sinfonia Ancaster, which is the orchestra I conduct in Ancaster, Ontario, which is the suburb of Hamilton. This is the second year that the orchestra is in its it’s in its Performing Arts Center. And when I was planning the season, I thought we were so grateful and happy to be in this art center. And then I thought we should just do something to really, I mean, to kind of express that gratitude. And then I began to think about the land on which the art center sits. And I realized, and of course, been aware that in Canada, people have been saying, land acknowledgments for the last several years. And those words came into my mind did land acknowledgement. And I thought, why don’t we do a concert that is centered on acknowledging the land on which we’re standing. And rather than have a small thing that organization would say, at the beginning, we would have an entire concert focused on where we are. And I then reached out to to eliminate Barbara Cigna, who ended up connecting with me. Margaret is a great composer. And a snobby and she connected me with the composers whose music we’re playing. And we were playing, I’ll introduce them in a second. But we are playing their pieces on the second half of the concert. And we are also playing on the first half of the concert, the music of Beethoven, his sixth symphony, and all of the composers on pieces that that spy, Donna, Catherine and Jessica have written all incorporate nature and land to some degree in their works, which I find really fascinating. And so we we are showcasing a number of different composers who take part in the land benefit from it, and have a deep appreciation for it. We are all all of the works on the concert are acknowledging land, and specifically the composers that we have our two of them are from nations on which an Custer Art Center sits in Michigan Ave and Mohawk. Would it be alright if I introduce them, Melanie?

Yeah, sir. Excellent. Do you want to do you want to introduce them one at a time? And we can sort of talk about the piece each piece.

As you wish. So let me first start with We’ll first start with Don Avery. Don Avery is someone who Barbara connected me to Don is from Mohawk Nation, Turtle Clan. And Don is a Grammy nominated world music artist for Professor of my professor at Montgomery College in Rockville, Maryland, where she runs a world music program. And Don has written a piece specifically for our concert. And the name of the piece which she has written for us is called Indian Territory.

Hello. Nice to see everybody. Thanks. Now Melanie Jeffrey and Barbara are getting me involved in this great project and I’m delighted to write a piece I know you often in your podcast Talk about leadership and innovation. So I’ll just talk briefly about that the peace invokes the ancestors of the land both on national Beck and holding a shoni. And part of the way it does that is through indigenous soundscapes such as the sound of rattles or an actual rattle the sound of the drum, the sound of the wind, the sound of the ancestors walking along the land. And then I actually asked the orchestra to get a little maybe out of their comfort zone, I don’t know by invoking the names of the main chiefdoms basically the main nations. So that the Bat Ancient sound of who they are is also vibrating with the land. Interesting.

I’m so excited about this concert. Even I can’t believe I get this opportunity to ask you questions. What was it like for you to approach this project?

I think when when Jeffrey approached me to have land acknowledgement right away, I just thought of the people. And there’s so many ways to acknowledge land, but I wanted to acknowledge the first peoples of this land. And because they’re alive today as well, and invoking names or any ancient any of our languages, is is very powerful musically, as is a symphonic orchestra.

I imagine. I mean, I’m very impressed that you created a new piece for this this concert Is that is that unusual? Is that a lot of work to put something new together for an invitation?

Well, it was great to work with Jeffrey because he was very helpful because I was not planning on writing a new piece. But as I was looking at older pieces, and I just realized that I had to do something new for him. I was very impressed by his attention to detail and his excitement, and then the whole program idea. I was like, No, I have to write them their own piece. So it’s always a lot of work. But for me, composing is like the deepest meditation and especially if it’s for my people, the fact that it’s in the territory is fantastic. I hope to bring a lot of people and some of whom have never seen a symphonic orchestra. So I think it’s a very special moment that I get to be part of, and I’m really glad about that.

Wow, introduce next.

Okay, I’m Melanie mill. I’d like to introduce you to two composers at the same time. The first is spy gentleman Welch, who is initially not a spy is the Associate Professor and Canada Research Chair and critical policy equity and Leadership Studies at Western University. And he’s also the artistic director of unsettled scores, which is an independent performing arts production company that he co founded with his composing partner, Katherine McGowan, who and Catherine is a bassoonist, a composer and arts administrator. And also interestingly, I did not know this about you. Catherine is the co founder of the world’s first electric bassoon band, okay. And she and spy have presented at conferences on topics such as decolonization, and intercultural collaboration and music and they run workshops for youth and young adults on music creation and the politics of music. And Sinfonia is pleased to perform two of their pieces. One is called Rouge winter. And the other is called bottle net. So I introduced you to spy and Catherine welcome.

Spy and Catherine.

Yeah, welcome. It’s great to have you here.

Thank you for having us.

Yeah. Likewise, it’s good to be here.

What was it like for you, or what’s important about being a part of this for you?

Well, I guess I’ll take a moment to just say I really enjoy the opportunity to have works enjoyed and performed by different groups, different ensembles is within different regions as as well. We have two pieces. As Jeffrey just mentioned, one of which is really local, actually, to the region. It sort of addresses some of the issues around water and water conservation preservation, and situated within the Grand River itself, and the other is in its own right, another kind of river, the Rouge River. we situate that whole piece that we’re thinking of the storytelling in that work all around the Bruges itself, and so I’ll just pass it to Katherine who may have a few comments about this as well.

Yeah, rouge River was really exciting for us to create because it’s it’s based in Scarborough Ontario, which is my hometown. And a lot of my early experiences with wildlife and nature are from the, what is now the rouge, urban National Park. So we were asked to write that piece for Scarborough Philharmonic Orchestra, which I played with for a very long time in my formative years. And so we were asked to compose that for their 40th anniversary a few seasons ago. And with bottlenecked, it was first performed by Nota Bene, which is based in Kitchener Waterloo, for a concert all about the Grand River. And that land is very close to and Castro as well. And a lot of the sort of issues with around water conservation would impact that area as well.

That’s, it’s interesting to I’m really fascinated by the lens that people put over composing. And it’s, it’s interesting to hear that the water is the one of the things that that one of your lenses.

I think, for that piece, in particular, Melanie, I think I’ll just elaborate on it. It’s the piece is about the journey of a single droplet of water, from its formation in the clouds to joining other water, water in the Grand River until it’s finally taken out and rudely taken out of its environment and then bottled and sold. Hence bottlenecked it’s a journey.

Interesting. Yeah, I’m not a musician, myself, but I can imagine that water would lend itself to being brought to life and music.

Yeah, totally, it does. And it’s really interesting to explore that, in terms of sound and the ways we can have that represented through the colors of different instruments. And similarly with Roush winter, we are really interested in the sound of snow, which is basically just a solid form of water, and in other life forms that that inhabit that space. So it really could capture our imagination, but also take a very compassionate look at the welfare of other beings and other kin that we have in our midst. And to be very aware of these environmentally significant areas are really critical to our ecosystem. And more importantly, that we think about how we engage and interact with them, and be mindful of being of the boundaries that we need to sort of create to respect that space as well.

I’m curious, because this is a leadership podcast, too. I’m curious about as you’re composing together, how does the flow of leadership work in your partnership?

Oh, well, I’ll take the opportunity to say here that anything that has indigenous content in it, I always defer to spy and anything that would, if we took on any projects that would have culturally relevant themes that are from my ancestry, he I’m sure he would defer to me as well. But beyond that, we like to try one of the things that we try to do with unsettled scores when we’re working with other artists. And it sort of comes up in our working relationship as well is just try to level out hierarchies as much as we can. Obviously, there are people who would have, you know, the final say, if we’re doing an opera, the set person has to have the final say, we can’t keep tweaking right to the end. But we like to have a lot of dialogue and try to work towards sort of a consensus building model. And that sort of happens in our working relationship as well. When do you say spy?

Yeah, I completely agree you said so perfectly. And also, it’s a really amazing way to learn from somebody else as well as teach. So you’re there’s a really good reciprocal approach to leadership and also the sharing of responsibilities. I think that that’s helpful. And also ways of getting some feedback into soundboard. Some of the you know some of the the intricacies of challenging topics or situations you can work through more mindfully getting almost immediate feedback from someone else.

Introduce Jessica.

Well, I’ll go ahead and take that. Oh, no thank you. And and the composer who’s coming, who’s coming from the furthest West is Jessica McMahon. I mentioned Barbara earlier in the in the podcast and Barbara was initially was going to have some of her music performed. But actually ultimately schedules didn’t line up. And she suggested Jessica is somebody else I had wanted to keep the composers from nations on which the Lancaster center sits. But that said was given our time constraints that was hard to talk. Some are hard to do. So we expanded our lens. And I’m so glad we did because we, we I became acquainted with Jessica Jessica McMahon, who is from Cree Nation and she lives in Calgary. She is a multidisciplinary artist, and her work fuses together traditional language and dance with her own contemporary experiences as an indigenous woman and two spirit person. And we are playing a piece of hers called mu squoze. Mountain Home.

Welcome, Jessica.

Welcome.

There you go. Thanks. I’m really happy to be here. In my piece of called, Moscow’s Mountain Home, and, yeah, it’s, it was commissioned by the Calgary Philharmonic, many things the Chris Starks and who recommended me for that project of Alberta composers. And my I had a theme to compose around and it was the theme of home and I really struggled with that. Oh, sorry, it was the first it was the four seasons that got me into Vivaldi head and I couldn’t get out of that. And so I like looking at it broadly more broad, which was the theme of home instead of the four seasons. And so I had to really think about what was home to me as a 60 Scoop at op T. Home can be very complicated. And so I took a look at the things around me and I and beings around me actually. And the places that I that I felt really good in and that included a very specific portion of southern Alberta called the high wood paths. And in the high wood paths, there’s Gridley Pekin, and there’s a hike that I really liked doing called ptarmigan, Cirque. And there, it’s all usually always closed because of grizzly bears. And I really thought about how also the prompt I had had a story about a grizzly bear in it. So I was thinking about the bears and a bear and her cubs. And so that really informed the entire piece from the sound to including bringing in twigs for the musicians to use as instruments, which is also probably out of their comfort zone. I’m sure a violinist does not want to hear that sound ever. But to really emulate the sound of like when you’re walking in the woods, and you can hear maybe a bear that’s too busy eating and stepping on twigs instead of being silent. And just kind of really bringing that calming essence of the freezing winds of the Highwood past and that home that is to the bear. My home is in southern Alberta. I live in Concord now. And I was adopted out from Kansas First Nation in Saskatchewan. And those themes of home are very important to me because I have worked very hard to meet my family and know where I come from. And I have good relationships with my my family there, except for my birth mom. So a lot of my work is informed by that as well as trying to reclaim my language as well.

And Jessica, I know what 60s scoop is, but I’m not sure all of our listeners would know. Would you mind just?

Yeah, yeah, of course. So the 60 Scoop was a very specific time in the history of this country between 1960 and 1993 where Indigenous kids were forcibly removed from their homes and placed in white homes to be raised as non native kids.

Thank you for that.

Melanie I wanted I can respond to just two things about about certain things that have made musicians uncomfortable I’m just happy to share a thing or two in response to their work. Each of the composers pieces that we’re playing have have caught some eyebrows and but it’s fine. Jessica and the Enter twigs is what I mean you should see Jessica the discord chats going on a pal people even collecting and amassing twins, and we’re gonna have to talk with you about this what tambor tweak Are you looking for? Because we have you know, Linden we had there’s there’s a whole bunch of twigs that I’ve actually got in the back of my car. As we prepare for a dress rehearsal to have musicians do that, and there’s all this talk about, well, we have to make sure the tweaks are dried out so that they actually we have a really good crack. I mean, people are taking this very seriously. Spying Katherine, you meant you mentioned about walking in the snow for ruse winter, of all of the effects that we’ve had to produce, I think the creation of the snow effect has been one of the most challenging Melanie, what they have asked to do is have the instrument though string players use their bows against the strings. But instead of producing notes to produce this gentle scraping sound, which, when with all of the string instruments together, creates this, this stimulating the walking in snow, it took us a while to get there, it’s fine to say because most of the time musicians that hit with the violin, they produce a note. And so we’re actually telling them to No, don’t produce a note.

I let’s just invite everyone back on camera, if we’re gonna talk about all the pieces, and invite them all, back.

And Don, and Don’s piece and, and Dan’s piece, actually, the speaking of the names of the nations was absolutely fine I worked on make sure the pronunciation is exactly correct. That didn’t trouble people so much as figuring out as figuring out how to actually make the sound of wind that you had from all of the Add from all of the the brass instruments. And also these key clacks that you asked for in the soundscapes, Don actually asks the woodwind instruments and the bass instruments to instead again, instead of using the sounds they conventionally make, to have to use their key woodwind keys to make a clicking sound. So using the trumpet valves to make a clicking sound, and this has raised an eyebrow or two, it’s so each of these pieces that I’m happy to say is expanding the playing techniques of our players who are doing things and interesting and challenging way and their game. And it but it is, but it is new, anything new and innovative is there’s going to be a learning curve. And the players are really, really liking work on all of your pieces. And I’m so grateful that you’re at your worst we’ll all be showcased. Nobody I want to say something else before taking the focus off me is that we are so thrilled at Sinfonia Ancaster, that all of the people you see here present are going to be with us for the concert. So Jessica is coming from Alberta, dawn is coming up north, she lives in Maryland and spy and Catherine coming up from London, Ontario. So there’ll be all here, all acknowledging this land or the land that Jessica is writing about from Alberta. And we proceed this with Beethoven, which is meant your listeners may not know the symphony we’re playing as the sixth symphony, which Beethoven expressly wrote, you know, hundreds of years ago, about the joy that he felt from nature, nature, and his expressed representations of circling back to water, what’s it like to be on the water? What are the feelings that I have when I go out into nature? And then what is the terror of being in a thunderstorm? And then the gratitude that we feel when the storm has passed. So all of these pieces are, I really like how they’re bouncing off of each other. In as we put them together, all about humans experience with different aspects of nature, or in Jessica’s case, the experience of bears experience with its natural habitat.

I think I understand this, but I want to check with you all all of you, but I think mostly your job. The order of the pieces means something in a program, is that correct? Like the the, like playing Beethoven in the first before intermission? You it makes it more weighty that these pieces are being played in the second half. Is that correct?

I think so. Yes. Oftentimes, and I, I will see you on how orchestras program and of course, you all can speak better to this new music, strange new works works that people haven’t heard before, tend to be put on the first half of a concert, as we want, as orchestras play that and then get to the meat or the big work in the concert. And so I and so, actually talking with Katherine was a great dialogue that we had about let’s put
Beethoven first so so Beethoven, let’s warm up.

Beethoven first so so Beethoven, let’s warm up…

Beethoven is the warm up man. So you’re privileged that we are privileging the works of all The composers who are alive, and many of whom were from these nations. So reversing that, that paradigm.

I want to ask all of the composers like what it means to do have a program like this, what does it mean for you? What you think it means for Ancaster? Or for the symphony? Like, what does it mean that that this is happening?

I think one, one thing that’s important to me and research in recordings I’ve done over the years, is that, as indigenous people, we do everything. And we’re also classical composers. And we’re, we have blues, and we do hip hop. And so to represent in that way, is, is really important, I think, especially to use. And then also to represent the fact that, that we’re here, and we’re really intelligent, you all sound very intelligent. I’m so excited, and that we all have very different voices. We’re not all the same. So I think there’s a lot of stuff that’s happening underneath and, and above many layers.

I’m so moved by what you just said, you know, we went to a screening last night at the Performance Center about a residential school. And it’s important that story gets told, but it’s also important that the voices of people who are succeeding who are soaring, who are amazing contributors in the world gets told as well. And so I’m just so touched by what you said, because I think it’s when when, when a group is marginalized in some way we tell them, we have to remember not to just tell the marginalized story like it’s, it’s. So I love that so much.

I have a I have equipment. Ask me a question, Melanie?

Well, I want to hear from everyone. I want to hear from everyone on this. What does this mean to you?

I’ll just jump in to say I’m pleased to be working, you know, having work presented next to Don and Jess could be really frank, it’s it’s nice to see dynamic and diverse voices in a program like this, as opposed to just one offs. I think it’s really nice. I think it’s very important to see our work expressed alongside each other. And so for me, that’s just a really exciting opportunity to see that and to be present next to these wonderful artists as well.

Cool, thanks. I, for me, every time that somebody wants to play my music is a big deal. I don’t, I came from a very rough music education. And I did not start composing until I guess it would have been late 2019, early 2020 When I was when I when Chris made me do it. And so I Chris Dixon is a creative cellist in in Canada, and a good friend of mine. And so I, I did, I started and then this, this commission came along, and I this is my first orchestral piece. And so the momentum that this adds to it is huge. For me personally, this will be the third performance of it, and there will be another one in the future. And so I, for me, that is like just beyond anything I could have ever imagined as a young student in university that just left music for eight years and abandon it because it was so terrible. So for me, it’s just like, and then to see other indigenous composers having this like, unfortunately, in the music world, or cash flow commission usually carries more weight. And so to have that support, and just to be all on the same program, I’m very fortunate that my first orchestral piece was in a in a concert of only indigenous composers writing for orchestra. So I was like, that was like huge and to see the momentum continued to other institutions. It feels really good. And to have a piece that’s played more than once is also really really good. That feels like fantastic that the you know, that there’s the support is gaining and that we’re starting to be. I mean, I don’t know about either of you. But for me, I can’t just compose something without a permission because I want I can’t afford it and to I I don’t have the time because I’m too busy like hustling, to get work and to do things. And so I’m not like I have very commissioned focus, which is also a privilege as well, because not everybody can just work off of commissions either I understand that. But to have this be have the continuance of everything is just really, really awesome. And I think I’ve connected with spy before over email a few years ago, but I’m really also always happy to see other indigenous composers. Because there’s, I don’t know, if it’s exciting, it’s like, it feels new and fresh, and like there’s a wave rolling in. But that’s, that’s unstoppable.

I mean, I have to say, like, Beethovens cool that you guys are like, inspiring, like and relevant. Like, you know, people I’d like to have a beer with and it’s really yeah, get to like, I mean, it’s just very, very cool. And I feel like I’m walking on sacred ground, as we, you know, are having this conversation. I feel incredibly privileged.

I’m glad Jessica inspire brought this up, is that, traditionally, conventionally, there will be one piece of new music on an orchestral concert, that’s as much, you know, as the and so to have this, to have this concert. And like the concert that Jessica referred to, I think that’s one thing that really sets this apart is that there is a collection of pieces of composers who are all alive, all connected to the land, and connected to most in this place. That’s what I think sets this program apart from others, and what our musicians feel particularly inspired by, I have to tell you, all four of you, they’re loving the work on it. And they’re so excited that you’re coming. They’re really honored that you’ll be joining us. And yeah, they’re taking it all very seriously.

Thanks. And, of course, I’m looking forward to seeing the concert.

And Katherine, I want to give you a chance to comment as well. I don’t want to leave you out, for sure.

Yeah, well, anytime a piece gets played is very exciting, because, you know, the orchestra is a unit, but it’s made up of individuals. So every time it’s played, everybody’s putting something of themselves into it. So every time a piece is played, it transforms into something else. And that’s always the most exciting part of it for me.

Well, it seems like you know, everybody has to go, I guess we have to stop talking. But what a joy to be with all of you. I’ll be there. So I’m gonna I’m sure hoping I get to meet you all in person. And I, I can’t wait. Like I am just so excited. So thank you so much for taking time out of your very busy lives to be on my podcast and or Mel and my podcast. He just started co hosting, and I have to change all my language. But thank you for being on our podcast. We’re super excited that you are here today.

Thanks for coming today. And I really look forward to seeing the concert. That’s a meeting all of you.

Thank you so much.

Thank you, everybody.

Thank you. Yeah, thank you.