Although we have different cultures and upbringing, society has been limiting us in more ways than one, making our full potential for us to unleash. Through neuro-linguistic programming, Shawna Schuh believes that this can help produce the most effective leaders today and become more open to fear and failure. Melanie Parish talks with this innovative thought leader to reveal how she studies animal behavior, language impact, and human connection to break down limitations that hinder us from achieving our best self. Shawna also dissects how such programming can be applied in the contrasting cultures between the United States and Canada, as well as the challenges women face when approaching leadership. 

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Shawna Schuh: How Neuro-Linguistic Programming Can Redirect Your Life 

I’ve been thinking about leadership and I’ve been thinking about blind spots, and how the things that I don’t know can hurt me. I assume I have the right answer and I don’t always know what’s coming. I wonder how do I start to fill in these blind spots? One thing is to do something either an informal or formal 360 process. There’s also a cool app called Backfeed+ that you can get some on–the–ground feedback on a regular basis, and just asking people, how do you think I’m doing or sending out an anonymous questionnaire to find out. The most important way is to open the feedback loops of what’s working and what’s not working. What am I doing to get in the way? 

I also think there’s probably a risk that I get so caught up in my own needs that I make it all about me. Sometimes people don’t want to give lots and lots of feedback. They want me to do my job, to be good at what I do and not to demand that people weigh in all the time. I know I always have to balance that. There’s a sweet spot of getting some feedback, asking for people to weigh in and creating a safe space. There’s a throw down the gauntlet do the job of leadership and assume you’re on the right path. It’s a fine balance. That’s what I’ve been thinking about. I wonder how this is for you. I’d love for you to drop me a note or tell me what you notice if you think about where your blind spots are and how you find them. 

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I’m here with Shawna Schuh who’s an innovative thought leader who can help you unpack the pesky problems you encounter when you lead people. With a curious mind herself and a Master’s Certificate in Neuro-Linguistic Programming, Shawna is exceptionally skilled in the art of uncovering leadership blind spots and catapulting leaders out of the leadership weeds. She has worked with organizations like Nike, Columbia Sportswear, and associations such as The Fashion Group International and the National Speakers Association. She shares a unique perspective so that the information and ideas she promotes stick and work. 

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Shawna, it is exciting to have you on my show. I’m happy that you’re here. 

Thank you. I am whipped into a frenzy to be with you. I’ve checked you out online. You are very impressive. It makes me happy. 

I want to dive in and ask you what are you experimenting with in your own life? 

First of all, I love The Experimental Leader, your book. It’s super cool. I look at life as an adventure. People are like, “What was the latest adventure?” Everything is an adventure, especially if I’ve never done it before. What I’m experimenting with the most is how animals are teaching us more and more about being the best leaders that we can be. Animals communicate in a completely different way than we do. They don’t have the same kind of communication tools. However, they’re communicating all the time. As a leader, I find that leaders do a couple of things often. In my world, leaders mostly tell people, sell people or allow people. That’s where they get caught. They’re telling them. 

As a coach, you say, “Why are you getting the results you’re getting?” They go, “I told them 100 times.” I’m like, “That might be the problem.” In the animal world, you can tell them, but if they understand your language or not and it doesn’t work, you move rapidly to try something else. We don’t with humans. We tell them louder or harder. I look at that and say, “How can I listen to what my dogs, horses, pigs, goats, whatever you might have in your world, are saying or understanding what they’re trying to teach us, whether it’s the energy that we present or whatever it might be?” I’m experimenting with what that looks like, from fear to commands. In coaching, the best leaders are the ones that help their team to discover it for themselves. 

If I ask you the right questions, instead of me telling you, you may have that realization or revelation that, “I get that.” It’s exciting. Take a horse, for instance. If you put a little pressure like you want the horse to go this way and the horse didn’t, you then have to figure out, “If I push a little bit more and I let go of the pressure,” this horse goes, “I think I’ll go to the right. Good idea.” It’d become the horse’s idea. The best leaders use that juicy bit in there where it’s like, “Let me put a little pressure on this question,” and then ultimately they come to that conclusion themselves. 

That idea of using the non-verbal, we miss that channel a lot in leadership. We think that words are powerful. Many years ago, I was working in a job. I got hired by the person who was leaving the job. She spent three days throwing everything, the intensity of a full year at me. On the last day, I was like, “What do you think I should do first?” She said, “I told you that on the first day.” I was like, “There’s no way I remember anything about day one.” She had this viewpoint that if she told me, then I knew it. We can use different ways and questions. Also, we can populate ideas. It might take three years to populate a new idea in an organization, “Have we thought about having coffee? It might take three years until we get coffee,” but at some point, everybody’s talking about coffee. 

Let’s go back to animals. There are two ways I always think about training versus education, but it’s consistency. If you look at the fact that she told you one time, and then we’re like, “We’re positive. They got it.” My favorite quote is from George Bernard Shaw who said, “The challenge with communication is the illusion it’s been achieved.” It hasn’t been, but you believe it has. All of that comes from you as a leader having a pretty intense focus on what you want at the end. A lot of leaders don’t. This is the problem that I find when people come back. I coach people inside a team, and then they are criticizing the leader because the leader is off over her. They read a book and they’re off over here. 

Neuro-Linguistic Programming: Many people in a team want the leader to be incredibly consistent, but business isn’t consistent.

It’s because they’re innovative and they’re experimenting. This is your gig. They’re experimenting on something. A lot of people in a team want the leader to be incredibly consistent, but business and the environment isn’t consistent. We have to be able to think fast and move. I also think the other piece is that people are different from animals. You train animals. I don’t believe you train people. Certain things have to be trained. The way I always say it is you train for things that you have to do the same way every single time. 

A software, you open it, you do this. If there are compliance issues inside your business, you must be compliant. You have to do it that way and there’s no other way around it. In the realm of human experience, it’s all experimental. It’s all, you reach out, and you worked on something, or you ask a question. They took it or they didn’t take it. You see it on their face. It’s right there and then you go, “That didn’t work.” There’s that nonverbal. You’re like, “Let me do it a different way.” It’s much more about educating or coaching than it is about training in my mind. 

It’s interesting to think about when you’re skilling up on a task and when you’re innovating. Those are two different things. I want to shift gears a little bit. I know that you are an NLP coach. I would love for you to talk about that. I’ve known people over the years who do NLP. I’ve liked some of the things that they’ve done. Tell us about that part of your background. 

I had got involved with coaching years ago when I had masterminds. Some of my mastermind partners were going through coaching programs, and I would be the guinea pig. Of all the coaching programs that I was the guinea pig for, NLP struck me as the way that I liked the best. The way I describe it to my clients is this, “It’s Neuro-Linguistic Programming.” You had talked about the power of words. That’s one piece of it. The first one is it is not set in stone. There isn’t one way to do it. That’s what I love about it. The education, even with what I’ve done in NLP, it’s outdated immediately because we’re learning more about the human mind than we’ve ever known before. 

We’re able to understand how the neural pathways are hooked together, and when you go to learn something, they’re like little Christmas lights. They hook together and you’re like, “I got it,” then you don’t use it. It breaks apart. It’s like, “I don’t have it.” We’re learning how the human mind works, and that’s an ever going and ongoing experiments science. It’s wonderful. I’m interested in that, then the language part of it. It’s linguistics. Within the coaching realm or the way I do it is I become a word watcher for my clients. 

I’m listening in such a way that the goal would be to hear what’s not being said. When I’ve asked my clients, which was an interesting experiment, I just sent a text and said, “What do you think you’re getting out of working for me?” It was an assignment I had from one of my coaches. It was amazing how many people came back and said, “You know things about me that I never say.” It’s because we as human beings leak. We leak our limiting beliefs and what is holding us back. 

Language is so vital within my work because it’s not the word. It’s the intent behind the words. When I’m working with leaders, I’m always asking, “Watch those words.” They get caught in the words, but it’s not about the word. It’s about awareness that you’re using those words to either fill in when you’re feeling overwhelmed or when you’re insecure, you’re using filler words, or you’re using words that don’t suit you because they weaken you. I love that part of Neuro-Linguistic Programming. It’s a piece I hook on.  

The last part is the programming. I look at it like this. We’re programmed in so many ways as Americans, at least. We all drive on the same side of the road. It’s a good program. It saves a lot of lives. People still can drive too fast or whatever and be rude, but we are all programmed. That’s a good program. A lot of the programs that we were given as kids aren’t good programs. I don’t know about you, but my mother gave me this program, “eat everything on your plate.” That program, I am so ingrained. I’m like, “I don’t want to eat everything on my plate. I am not hungry.” That breaking that program has become more difficult. As an outside voice for an outside observer for my clients, I’m looking and seeking to figure out what programs they’re in and how we could replace those programs. 

I have a specific question that popped into my head as you were talking. It’s around the word failure and something around authenticity. I talk a lot about experimenting and safe to fail. I’ve been trying to do something where I’ve been on the edge of learning and failing. That’s just experimentation to me, but I know that when I use that word, people react to that word. They think I feel bad. I don’t feel bad when I use that word. I was curious what your thoughts were around that. In my mind, sometimes I fail. It’s okay to fail. I don’t have a trigger about the word itself, but other people do. 

Your intent behind how you’re using it is experimental. You’re using it as, “Give it a go, and it doesn’t work out.” Let’s look at Edison. He said, “I did it a thousand times wrong.” How are we working? In my mind, the very most successful leaders are doing what you’re doing. They’re experimenting. Carol Dweck wrote the habits book. It’s about a growth mindset versus a set mindset. We’re raising a series of people who are frightened to fail. They’re in a set mindset because they don’t understand that doing their best is the win. They believe that you have to get it right. For your sake, when somebody corrects you about failure, you uncover their limiting beliefs. 

That’s useful to enter a deeper dialogue with them. For me, I’m going to be fine. There’s plenty I’m going to succeed at. It’s not a self-esteem thing that says, “I might fail.” It’s just the truth. There’s a point where I try something and I fail. A vendor said, “What’s your goal?” I said, “I want a seven-figure business.” He said, “Why?” I said, “Mostly to check in with vendors and make sure they’re not going to limit me in any way.” He laughed and he said, “I’m not that guy,” and I hired him. The why behind all of that is sometimes funny. 

Neuro-Linguistic Programming: Because of their history, women have become more susceptible to imposter syndrome

For me, NLP is about exploring. It’s about digging a little deeper. It’s about saying, “If the brain works this way, that we’re finding out so much and we can find out more about it, which is fascinating to me.” Their language and programs are where were dancing. We’re dancing around what they’re saying and how they’re saying it. The word failure and what it means to them is infinitely fascinating to me. Then you keep asking and asking, so you go deeper and deeper. The fear isn’t a failure. It’s what they think failure would produce inside their lives. 

I don’t fear that. 

No, because you’re a confident, amazing leader. The beauty of having many years of experience as you have is that we’ve seen it, done it, been there, and there’s still so much to learn. However, we know that if we fall off the horse, we can get back on. 

Sometimes I ask people on my show to talk about imposter syndrome. It dawns on me that you might be a good person to talk to about that. I’m not asking you for your deepest, darkest personal secrets or anything, but I would love to know how you help leaders through it, what you see that works around imposter syndrome in general? 

If everyone was as honest with themselves as they could be, haven’t we all experienced in some time or place where we went, “I’m out of my league.” I was in the desert and I’m like, “$4,000 for a necklace. I’m like, I got to get out of here right away.” In reality, if I wanted to spend $4,000 on a new necklace, I could, but it’s not my value system. We have this fear. Are we good enough? Are we smart enough? Are we good-looking enough? Are we young enough? Are we old enough? Whatever it might be. If you can recognize where the fear is, isn’t that the power? This is uncovering, what’s your programming? What are your beliefs? How are you leaking it? You go, “I hope they don’t find out. I don’t know.” Instead of, “What can I learn? How do I gain these skills?”  

There’s instead of, “How do they not find out the imposter syndrome if I don’t know it?” This is the difference between those that are highly effective and those that just make do. The ones that are making do are hiding the fact that they don’t know. The ones that don’t know go, “Where do I learn that?” It’s like, “I don’t know it yet.” That’s one of the NLP skills we give all the time. Whatever you say negatively like, “I don’t know how to do that.” You slide yet at the end of the sentence. If I say, “I don’t know how to do that.” It’s like, “What if they find out? I don’t know how to do that.” If you say, “I don’t know how to do that yet,” your whole body, your whole psyche, everybody goes, “She’ll learn it,” and Indeed I will. 

There’s this edge you leap over. I was on a call with a bunch of twenty-somethings doing technology. It was a mastermind call. I got called on, and I was like, “I didn’t know I was going to learn this in front of seventeen people who are faster, younger and more technology smart than I am.” I asked for help. I said, “How about you drive? I’ll give you control of my screen.” I learned, but there was that moment that I was like, “I don’t know anything.” I want to switch gears again. I’m guessing you have a lot of experience coaching women leaders. I do too. What do you think of unique challenges for women in leadership? 

My premise for who I am as a human is that the human experience is more similar than dissimilar. Every human just like every species wants the same things. Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, we want safety, clothing, and food on our table. The difference with women is historically, we’ve not owned things. This is new for us. It’s the apologies. What’s unique is that we are apologetic that we want to play like all humans can play. We’ll say, “We’re sorry, forgive me, I didn’t mean to do that.” We’re lessening ourselves. One of the things that I do in my coaching a lot, because I’m that word watcher for them, are the things that weaken them. The words and phrases that they’ll use will be incredibly weakening. 

They don’t realize how much it weakens them. We shed a light on this particular word or this phrase or whatever they’re doing, and we replace it with something that’s strengthening. We’re creating a new program or pattern where they’re like, “I can do that instead.” It works when we replace it. I think that all humans have this imposter syndrome. Women are quicker to say they have it. I do traits exercise where I ask everybody to write down ten traits that they possess, but I give them no clue. I say, “What do you think? Think of your best leader. Do you have those same traits? Write down the ten traits of the best leader you’ve got?” 

It’s always surprising what people come up with. You would think that they would have more of a group think, especially if they work together, but they do not. It depends on their position. To do some research on it, I went online and looked up the top traits of leaders. I got 3 or 4 different lists. One was 15 traits, 10 traits, 6 traits. The crazy part of all of this was there wasn’t anything. There was the same trait except one and it was empathy. Empathy was the only one that made all of the lists that I looked at. It’s crazy and wonderful to realize how different we all are about what we think the top traits of a leader are. The fact that empathy came all the way through showed that what is truly important is the feeling behind leadership and that women have empathy in spades. Many do, some don’t, they’re humans, but that gives them an edge. 

It’s interesting when you talk about that there are these ways that women play small, and they have their own stuff. There can be this unwillingness to step into power for women. I had an experience many years ago. I was at a coach training. One of the other coaches told me I was too confident and I needed to be self-deprecating. I was gobsmacked. I crossed paths with her. I trigger her in some way. Every time I meet her, she’s got some sharp barb for me. I trigger her. I find it almost comical like I want to poke the bear a little bit. It took me a while to figure out that that’s what was happening. In the meantime, I was bewildered. I’m in Canada. Where are you in the world? 

I’m in Oregon. 

There are this niceness and deprecating nature that’s part of the culture in Canada. Most of my clients are in the US. Mostly from a work context, I don’t run across it, but sometimes from a cultural context, I run across it. I notice a lot of women have a question at the end of their words. When you were talking about stepping into power, I was like, “That dialogue is different in the US and Canada.” There is a cultural difference between the two countries. I’m not sure if it exists for men, but I know it exists for women. 

I’ll add to that because I’m not a mother. I live on a farm. People are always, “You need to call somebody to take that down.” I’m like, “Put a chain on it. Let’s rip it out ourselves.” It could be that I’m adopted at birth. My mom was 40 years older than me. My dad kept saying, “When is Shawna going to learn to cook?” My mom would say, “She’ll learn when she needs to.” So far, I’ve not needed to.  

I’m adopted too. I cooked for the first thirteen years of my marriage, then I quit. I cooked all the time. One day I had knee replacements years ago. It was pain-related back then. After I got new knees, I didn’t think, “I better start cooking again.” 

When I got married to my ex, and I was married for a long time happily. We made a deal. I said, “You do all the cooking and I’ll do all the cleaning.” For the 26 years, we were married, he did all the cooking, and I paid to have the cleaning done. I live alone and I have my house clean. I cleaned my own stalls because there’s something spiritual about it. That animal can’t clean up after itself. It’s the way I stay healthy and fit, move manure and hay, but I don’t want to do my own house. This is our choice. 

When you were talking about the difference between Canadian and American, I don’t think it’s age-related. It’s experiential-related. My experience in life was a mother that constantly go, do, be, and making me read about adventures. You can do whatever you want in life. My dad would ask my opinion about things and made me feel like I had even more value. I come to the party with a strong sense of self and that if I don’t know it, I can figure it out. I’ll read about it or do what I needed. I was up in Canada quite a bit. I belonged to the strategic coach program. I went through their entire program. It was interesting to see the difference. You are very nice. 

I’m American, so no, I’m not. That’s part of the cultural challenge for me is I’m a transplant. I color outside the lines. 

Look at what you do and look at your book. It all makes sense. You’re being true to who you are. 

Where can people find you? 

Neuro-Linguistic Programming: If you can recognize your fear, you can discover the areas where you need to learn more.

It’s super easy online. It’s my name, Shawna Schuh. If you go to ShawnaSchuh.com, my quiz is fun, the Uncover Your Leadership Blind Spot. You can find that on my website and anything else. My TED Talks, at least one of them is there. If you want to get ahold of me directly it’s Shawna@ShawnaSchuh.com. 

I have enjoyed our conversation. Thank you so much for being on my show. It’s been a blast. 

I enjoy you to death. I know we’d be friends forever. 

Thanks, Shawna. 

Thank you. 

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I’ve enjoyed talking to Shawna Schuh. I love how she thinks about Neuro-Linguistic Programming and changing your language to make space for the not yet. “I can’t do this,” and add “not yet” as an opening to overcome imposter syndrome or to overcome the barriers and bottlenecks that are in the way of your own leadership. We are amazing learners. This powerful tip can help us change our own trajectory. Go experiment. 

Important Links:

• Shawna Schuh 
• The Experimental Leader 
• Shawna@ShawnaSchuh.com 

About Shawna Schuh

Shawna Schuh is an innovative thought-leader who can help you unpack the pesky problems you encounter when you lead people. With a curious mind, herself, and a Master’s Certificate in Neuro-Linguistic Programming, Shawna is exceptionally skilled in the art of uncovering leadership blind spots and catapulting leaders out of the leadership weeds.

Having worked with organizations like Nike and Columbia Sportswear to associations such as Fashion Group International and the National Speakers Association. Shawna shares a unique perspective so that the information and ideas she promotes stick and work.

With two TEDx talks to her credit, as well as 3 decades of experience, you will be enlightened as well as entertained while shifting from the less stellar things most leaders do to focus only on what the best leaders do.

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