The show’s guest in this episode is Dr. Jeanne Michele, and she’s many things. She’s a teacher, she’s a modern day philosopher, she’s part change agent, part coach, and she feels designs and delivers personalized programs to men, women and couples, to help them create lives, relationships and business partnerships that thrive.

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Thriving with Dr. Jeanne Michele

Hey, it’s so great to be here with you live today. I’ve been thinking about leadership a lot. And I’ve been thinking about how hierarchies work, you know, sort of top down hierarchies in organizations. And I had this like really interesting realization that top down hierarchies sort of remove some of the needs that we have in organizations for emotional intelligence, because the hierarchies really clear. So you don’t need to know how people are feeling but the skills of emotional intelligence are really powerful in any type of organization. As we flatten our organizations, and those hierarchies are less clear, and we need more collaboration, we sort of need more talking, we need feedback loops. And so the hierarchies get in the way of those feedback loops. The flatter the organization, the more people feel free to speak, the closer it takes the team to innovation. I’ve been fascinated with this, as I think about my own organization as I look at the organizations of my clients. And I really encourage you to think about what the skills are that you can develop, that will really help you create an innovative climate that will contribute to conversation and relationship.

And today, I’m super excited to have on my show. Dr. Jeanne Michele, and she’s many things. She’s a teacher, she’s a modern day philosopher, she’s part change agent, Park coach, and she feels designs and delivers personalized programs to men, women and couples, to help them create lives, relationships and business partnerships that thrive.

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I just am really excited to welcome Dr. Michele, on the experimental leader podcast.

Hi, Melanie, I am so excited to be here. And I love what you’re sharing what you began with regarding leadership and hierarchy. And the way things are shifting to make it you know, there is more of a flat leadership. And I think that applies to home situations as well as situations in the business.

Oh! Can you see more about that? I think that’s really interesting. That applies at home.

I think that we are all leaders. So I view it this way. It’s like sometimes we are in a position where I have a knowledge and an expertise that that causes me to take the lead in something. And sometimes our partner or someone in a business organization has another skill set that causes them to be better at that particular thing. And I think as we’ve all learned in leadership, that the best leaders are the ones who surround themselves with people who have expertise in a lot of different areas. So in the home environment, I think it’s creating an atmosphere where everyone gets to contribute, the kids get to contribute, you know, like, like, for example, you know, every week someone picks an activity to do and they get to take the lead in that. And that is teaching leadership skills at a very early level. And we try to think as parents as hard, as hard as we can not to make them right or wrong, but to really help them open up and help them open up a dialogue and conversation, which I think feeds in with the idea of, you know, a shared leadership. So that’s my thought on.

Yeah, I think that’s really interesting. And it also brings to mind and I talked about this when I work with teams but the idea of role nausea. So, we lead certain things in our personal lives, you know, for years, and at my house, I was the cook. And I had knee replacements quite a few years ago now. And I stopped cooking. And I never picked it up again, like I cook every now and then but I’m not the primary on cooking anymore. My husband had never really cooked and now he does a lot more of the cooking. And it’s just interesting how you can also shift roles, like you don’t have to inhabit them for your entire relationship. You can also you know, step out of them or express that you have role nausea. How can the system hold those roles more collaboratively?

And you know what I love? It’s almost like you just stated a family example of the difference between the hierarchy and something being shared. By the hierarchy, you were the cook and that was it and that was your you know, that was your role. And then all of a sudden, something happened. And it opened up an opportunity for someone else to step in and experiment. And you know, and then you found you didn’t have to take on that role. So I’ve never heard a role in that. But I understand why that to me.

I love that phrase. Well, and I think that we, when we get when we consider ourselves stuck in a role, I think I come from a long row long line of kitchen martyrs, you know, and, and I was so happy to give that up. Like, my grandmother would never let anyone in her kitchen. And my mom really was, I think my mom, when my dad retired, she said, either you can learn to cook, or we can eat out a lot. And he said, with going out. So they just did that, like they designed their relationship.

I’m really curious. And we’re, you know, we’re talking about thriving today. And I’d love for you to give just a few tips for people in their relationships, both at home and at work. Like what are some of the things you look for to help people thrive?

 

Well, when I think about the word thrival, I actually love defining words. So I always start out with what’s in the dictionary. And when I looked at what was in the dictionary, thriving, it was success and prosperity, being a highly successful person. And I’m like, wow, that may be part of thriving, and that, particularly in the Western world, seems to be how we define things. But when I dug in a little deeper, yeah, I came up with some other definitions beyond survival, growth, positivity flourishing. And I think about its rival to me is, is that flourishing, being in the place where something really lights up your world, you know, where you open into it, and part of it’s an experiment, you know, this, you have this idea, and there’s something that that you think you’d like to do, and then you kind of lean into it. And they think that it either opens up for you, or it kind of doesn’t, so then you get to decide, do I push into it? But how does it make me feel? Do I come alive in that? And I think that goes for relationships, too. You know, is there an aliveness that’s being created in this relationship? And if not, how can we enter into that? And I think a big key is curiosity. You know, if I’m in a partnership, and you’re doing something like you’re doing something in your leadership role, and you come home, and you start sharing it with me, I ask questions, and I’m curious, and that builds the thrival within the context of the relationship. Does that make sense?

The best leaders are the ones who surround themselves with people who have expertise in a lot of different areas. Share on X

I think, yeah. And there’s lots of things that pop into my head is you’re talking when is, you know, when I’m doing client work off, and we talked about flow, but also sort of fulfillment. And, and I do think it being a detective, is a really important part of that process. Because I think we’ve all thought, oh, you know, this hobby, really sounds fun. And then we write and we’re like, yeah, that didn’t scrapbooking was not my jam. Mm hmm. No, and, and so I think, and we have shoulds, like, we have these places that we think about, you know, what our parents did I have this, this thought this morning, I was like, one of the places that we’ve been doing a grand experiment in our families in the last year and a half is how do we wash our masks. So like, I like the hat. Oh, it’s like, it’s like, every other thing that I do in my house. I had a role model. My parents did it one way. But this mask thing, like I have teenagers, and I realized, we’ve created a new norm where everybody handles their own mask. And so we don’t share masks, they’re not communal in any way. But if we had little kids, we might have handled that differently. And so I just think it’s, it’s um, I just realized it was a really cool thing that is emerging, this new norm of how we do that is sort of fascinating and, and everybody will have their own answer to this. My husband also took two carrying a box of disposable masks in the back of his car, because we have one kid who just never can get to the car with a mask. And so we just solve it, but it’s this whole new thing that’s a part of daily life. That’s never been a part of daily life before.

I have to share something very funny that when you first said, Oh, we want we talked about washing our masks. I didn’t even go with the face masks. Maybe I’m getting used to COVID I don’t know. I went to how do we wash the masks that we wear?

The Infidelity Cure, The Guidebook for Men, and The Infidelity Cure, The Guidebook for Women.

Oh, interesting. You went all metaphor.

I totally went. And you know what, and I was thinking about I think, oh, wow, how cool is that? That you at your home? Talk about how do we wash our mask? But if there is some truth in that too. How do we Wash off the the personas that we carry, you know.

How do we go down the road?

Yes, yes. Especially when we’re doing stuff online, you know, who do I want to be? How do I carry myself? How do I look, you know, it’s like, who, you know, Gabor Maté, who is this brilliant medical doctor who was in the field for 20 years, and then started working with trauma and people with addiction, he talks about two things that we need. And I think they tie into thrival to human needs. One is attachment to attach to someone that we really can love and be loved by which I think we’ve all heard of attachment, attachment theory and how important that is. But the second thing he talks about is authenticity. I love that, because in order to thrive as a human being, you know, part of it is you need to feel that you’re bringing I think survival is bringing your authentic self to the table. You know, with everything going on in the world today, I think there’s no longer an option to just be silent and, you know, walk away or turn our backs, I think silence is a kin to not being in thrival, you know, keeping that voice inside? And how do we do it in a way that creates connection, as opposed to making someone wrong? You know, oh, you’re bad. I’m good. You’re this, you’re that we have had so much of that, particularly in the United States? You know, how do we come to a new place. And in Melanie, one of the things that I would argue is that, and I think this applies to all types of leadership as well, as well as in the family and in couples, is we are entering an age of partnership. You know, it kind of goes with what you’re saying about hierarchy. We used to be a matriarchal society, which meant, you know, people in feminine form tended to rule then we are, we’re, and we are still more of a patriarchy. But I think with everything going on, that is dropping away. And we are entering an age of true partnership. Like if I’m partnering with you, we’re collaborating and and like, just like the mask thing, you say something and sparks an idea. And me and I spark an idea in you. And I think that creates what I would call co thrival. You know, we’re thriving together. And I think that a big piece of it, is being willing to experiment with it, you know, some things are gonna work, and some things aren’t. And that’s okay. And so I think as you let go, maybe clearing your masks to me, you know, and I do this a lot in the couples work and with individuals is, it’s like, how do you let go of those things in the past that are in your backpack? These rocks that sometimes you don’t even know, are there that show up in the present moment when something triggers you?

I think survival is bringing your authentic self to the table. Share on X

What do you tell people when they pull stuff out of their backpack? Or they’re, they have a hard time putting things down?

Well, I think the first thing is to identify that, okay, where are you? Okay, this, this little thing is triggering you so much. Let’s trace it back. And then so often, when you come to this place of Oh, my gosh, I realized that, you know, my mom, it’s sometimes it’s not that there’s been this tremendous trauma and abuse, but there’s been these ways in which you didn’t feel attached and have your needs met. We unlock it, we unlock it, and we look at Wow, and and sometimes there’s tears Even for guys, you know, there’s this realization, and there’s some, you know, like, wow, that came from that. So now, how do I show up in this current moment to answer your question, you know, when, you know, my, something happens, and I get triggered, I think each partner becomes more mindful of that, like, if I know, this is your trigger, I’m going to say, Oh, hey, I’m seeing that thing. Again, you know, let’s stop and pause for a moment, let’s talk about it you know.

Or don’t talk about it. I mean, that’s the other option is, you recognize it, and you don’t keep stepping on it.

I think it’s both both are really important. You don’t want to become a victim to it, where every time this comes up, oh, remember when you were four years old. And, but but I think you do need to unlock it, and to feel the sadness and the loss of it. And then you need to choose in each and every moment, your response. And when you realize you’re responsible for choosing your response. And you start to, you know, create new, you lay down new tracks in your brain because we the tracks, the well worn tracks, it’s easy to fall into those things, but then you start doing it differently. And I think that also helps to wash away what was there in the past, but it’s a choice and when partners can remind each other of that it helps build these new neuronal connections in your brain and lay down new ways of being and doing which you know, allow you to breathe and allow you to have more room to thrive because if you’ve got all that junk in there, it’s really hard to thrive because it keeps pulling you back.

Well and I do this with disc profiling.

Oh, I love DISC!

And I loved DISC too. And I remember the first time I got my DISC profile, I felt like I had like my inner critic, parent, you know, critical parent there in the profile, just telling me everything that was wrong with me. And then over time, I was able to realize where my strengths were, and start to live with those and just not to worry so much. I have a really low C or low compliance, or, which means now I have two assistants, it’s no longer a problem. It solves almost everything sort of detail, detail oriented, that my organization handles it. And I get to go off and be creative and create content and do all the things do delivery, all the things I’m really pretty good at.

You know, I love that because I you know, I love DISC too. And we need to surround ourselves with people that again, fill in those gaps. I have recently hired a social media person and a VA, I’ve done it all myself, I’ve been the same way. And I’m like, I cannot rise to whatever’s next for me. And it’s not about hierarchical but open into let’s say it that way. I love what Brené Brown says about living wholeheartedly. I can’t open into that hole when I’m stuck doing these details that, yeah, I can get them done, but they take a lot out of me. So I did the same thing too. And I love DISC, because you can look at what your tendencies are and what your tendencies are under pressure. And how do you round it out? What do you you know, it sounds like you’re a visionary and you like to experiment? You can’t experiment when you’re sitting there doing all the detail, you know, because you get stuck in that way of doing things.

I have a crazy question for you. If you could wave a magic wand and there was one relationship skill that you could just bestow on the world, what would it be?

Oh, I have to choose one I you know, the first thing I go to is I can’t go to one I got to go to two. Okay, so let’s do is. One is deep listening. So I show up for you in a way where I really listen without trying to decide what I’m going to say next. And I’m really present and curious. I’m just with you. So maybe being with is the thing, but then I’m going to go to the other one. The other one is authentically speaking your truth. And like you said, choosing, you know.

Ways of a conversation.

Yes, yes, it really is. Those are the biggest things people struggle with. Because we listen with the ear of you know, what we’ve grown up with, you know, and when we when I can show up like we are right now, I’m curious about what you’re what you’re talking about. And I also want to authentically be me. And I think those are if I could bestow something on the world that would be that whether you’re a kid, whether you’re an adult, whether you’re a leader, you know, whatever you’re doing, because I think that’s, you know, and to know, I’ve got another one, that the wisdom lives inside of you, we really have wisdom inside. And I believe that’s our sacred through line. You know, to me, like spirituality is internal. And I believe there’s something greater and I think it’s getting in touch with that, and really allowing that and surrendering into that and letting that guide you not trying to control so hard. So I know I said more than one I probably said about.

I love that you snuck a few extra in. Maybe sneaking a few extra in is the the skill itself is just.

Like being present in the moment and being fluid. You know, like static? No, it’s being able to be responsive and being in the moment. I think that’s it and enjoying it. You know, like, like right now, right here, right now we’re together. And it’s fun. You know, we’re kind of not knowing exactly where the conversation is going to go. We’re flowing with one another.

Well, where can people find you Jeanne?

My website is www.LivingandLovingCourageously.com. And you know, one of the things I love is people having courageous conversations. So that’s living in love and courageously calm. They can find me there, they can email me there. And I would love to connect with anybody that has any questions or wants to, you know, start a dialogue.

That’s amazing. It’s been such a pleasure to have you on the show today. I loved hearing about how you can deepen relationships. Thanks so much for being here.

You’re welcome, Melanie. It was fun and it was fun connecting with you. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

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Well, it was so great connecting with Dr. Jeanne Michele. I loved how it really comes down to deep listening. And then authentically speaking. I think when I think about the experimental leader and feedback loops, those are the heart. Have good feedback loops both in your personal life and your work life and leadership. It’s really the way that information flows. So, I really challenge you to think about your listening this week, and I challenge you to authentically speak when you are speaking. It’s been great being here with you today. Go experiment!

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Dr. Jeanne Michele

Dr. Jeanne Michele is many things: Part teacher. Part modern-day philosopher. Part change agent. Part Coach. Her dynamic and engaging mentorship with individuals, couples, and leaders offers a departure from traditional counseling in that she assists people to more fully identify their passions and desires and then helps them design a roadmap to create it.

Dr. Jeanne merges her passion for helping people create extraordinary relationships and lives with her strong business background, to deliver personalized programs to men, women, and couples helping them
create dynamic lives, relationships, and business partnerships. She is adept at navigating complex relational challenges, such as infidelity, lack of life direction, mid and other life crises, as well as the day-to-day challenges faced by couples and individuals seeking love and recovering from heartache. She welcomes individuals and couples who have been disillusioned in their work with others in the coaching & counseling field.

Leaders find that her work helps them engage with their employees and partners in more conscious, communicative, and powerful ways. She helps leaders lead well and inspire others to do the same.

 

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