The show’s guest in this episode is Dr. Steve Yacovelli (a.k.a. “The Gay Leadership Dude®”). He is is an expert in diversity and inclusion, change management, and leadership. He’s worked internal for folx like The Walt Disney Company, IBM, Tupperware Brands, and several universities before starting his own consulting firm, TopDog Learning Group in 2008. TopDog works with both Fortune 500s and not-for-profit organizations to bring about a more inclusive and effective workplace through on-site workshops, virtual or face-to-face keynotes, 1:1 and group coaching sessions, and custom learning solutions. Steve’s also an award-winning author, speaker, and catalyst. His latest book, “Pride Leadership: Strategies for the LGBTQ+ Leader to be the King or Queen of their Jungle” ‘came out’ in 2019. Steve’s not-so-hidden agenda is to make the world a bit more inclusive for us all.

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Using Academic Theory and Applying it to the Corporate Setting to Achieve Business Results with Steve Yacovelli

Hey there, it’s great to be with your life today. I’m so excited to be here with you. I’m back in Ontario, which is always fun for me, it’s so nice to be home, I’ve been traveling a ton. And, and I’ve been thinking about so my son had this experience at the airport. And it’s actually like a thought that just keep staying with me, I keep thinking about it. So his name is really long because we hyphenated his name because we’re bad parents. And so it never fits on the boarding pass, which is actually a problem because you get a TSA, and then they throw you back. And so we keep trying experiments to try to get this right. But we never spend quite enough time to solve the problem. So we keeping in it. So he was in this crazy situation in Austin, Texas yesterday, and it made the news, it was so bad. And we were experimenting all over the place. First, the rental car returned, somebody stalled right in front of the rental car return. And so I had to abandon the car, I put it in short term parking and took them a ticket and the keys. But literally hundreds of people had to just leave their rental cars with the keys in it on the ramp to the rental car. So that was crazy. And then TSA was crazy. And the lines and all the counters were crazy. And my son got getting sent back and forth between customer service and check in and all of that. And they didn’t try to send him the third time to another counter. And he just said, No, I need you to help me. And he’s 16 years old, and he’s a tiny bit shy. And so it’s a really big deal for him to say no, but you know what happened? They helped him. And I just am really curious about you know, as leaders. When do we need to say no? When do we just say no, I can’t do that. Or no, that’s not going to work? Or just I always teach my clients to say, oh, no, I wish I could help you. But I can’t, and not to explain why. Because if you explain why then someone can argue with you about why or try to talk you out of it. But if you just say, No, this is a firm boundary, then sometimes no just really works. So I want to challenge you to think about in your life and your leadership today. What do you just need to say no to without explanation.

And I am totally excited about our guest today. Dr. Steve Yacovelli also known as the gay leadership dude. Excuse me, he’s an expert on diversity and inclusion, change management and leadership. And he’s worked internal for folks like the Walt Disney Corporation, IBM Tupperware, and several universities before starting his own consulting firm, Top Dog learning group in 2008. And they work with both fortune 500 companies and not for profit organizations. And I am so excited to have Dr. Steve on my show.

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Welcome to the show.

Thank you so much. It’s great to be here, Melanie.

And super fun to have you here. And I am just so excited to talk about all things leadership and you know, most things queer. So, anyway, it’s great. It’s great to be here. And I would love to, to think about sort of, or talk about how you see queer, why queer leadership, why not just leadership?

Thanks for asking that question. And so when I wrote my latest book, pride leadership, which if you’re watching, you’re seeing a little thing, I’m gonna have newscasters do with the green screen, I always get confused which way to so. But as we think about when I was thinking about writing my next book, which was the current one, probably leadership, I was kind of going for just a quote unquote, generic leadership book. And I’ve been in this space for 30 years, you see leaders who are just rocking and rolling, you see leaders who are crashing and burning, and you start to watch patterns of behavior on what’s working, what’s not. And so you’re kind of tucking all this away as I knew I was going to put together some sort of book. And then I do a lot of work in social justice, equality for both the LGBTQ community and also some other underserved and underrepresented minority groups. And I started watching my my, my peers, who are doing work and then if if you remember that, the Sex in the City show back in the day, you know, Carrie Bradshaw, if you’re not familiar, she’s a writer. she’d sit down at her little MacBook and she she always started, I couldn’t help but wonder dot, dot dot. And so that was kind of going through my little gay boy, Hey, boys, I couldn’t help but wonder is there something about the LGBTQ blue or queer experience that lends itself an opportunity to exercise? What I found to be the top six competencies and you’re seeing them right behind me?

Out Loud?

Yeah, absolutely. So the six that I really focus my energy on and I truly think make a difference with any leader are having authenticity, leadership, courage, embracing empathy, effective communication, building relationships. and shaping culture. And so but if I started putting those through the rainbow lens, as I like to say, and I just think that if you’re a queer person, you have the opportunity to exercise and practice these a little bit differently than our straight brothers and sisters and siblings. So for example, authenticity, you know, I mean, you talk to the Brene, browns, and all sorts of great folks who are saying, your authentic self is a powerful leadership tool. Yes, in general, that’s so true. But if I’m an out gay man at work, and being my authentic self, if I’m a trans person, who’s truly being my, my authentic self in the workplace, that’s exercising my authenticity, but that’s power. That’s leadership, and how can you leverage that to be an even more effective leader? And that’s kind of how I landed on probably leadership.

And so the the thing that pops into my head, as you’re talking, especially about authenticity, I get really curious, like, where to safety plan to all that? Where does, how do I be, you know, queerly, authentic? And when do I be queerly? Authentic? And when do I like, back off of that? I’m just not brave enough. I don’t know. I try to be brave. But when, when do I? When do I pay attention to the voice in my head that says you might lose something?

Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And actually, in my chapter on authenticity, I have that conversation about understanding context, and your authenticity. So I always equated to, you know, the dials on a radio or whatever, you know, type of device doesn’t date me. So I think about how Steve is, when I’m with my best friends, and we’re at a pub or a bar when we can do such things, if you’re comfortable now, or when I’m with my great aunt Mildred. You know, it’s still Steve. But my context is a little bit different. And so I’m dialed a little bit adjusted here and there. Pre COVID, I used to do a lot of work in Europe. And I know having been there having lived there, that the very gregarious very smiley, very extroverted, Steve needs to dial it down a little bit when I’m sitting in front of a European classroom. Now, it doesn’t mean I’m fake Steve. No, it just means that I understand the context. And that could be around safety that could be around fit, it could be around building trust. And then you know, usually it’s multi day workshops by the end of day one, and I’ve amped it up back to my really normal Steve, because I’ve built rapport and trust with those around me.

That’s interesting. We always like to play the game gay or French…

We say Nelly are foreign, Yeah…

Because especially the scarves like it’s like it’s that guy gay or is he just French? Eilish. Stylish, and I love their scarves, like the men don’t wear scarves so much in the US or Canada. And they’re so fantastic.

I learned the power of the scarf when I lived in Paris, so I totally get it.

And what was it Nelly or Nellie or?

I think a leader has to make a priority on creating space for all of the others on their team. Share on X

Ford? When I when I was a young guy and we’d walk around Epcot we’d be like, you see, like all these cute dads walk around, we’re like, ooh, are yours that person? Like? Are they gay? Or are they just like very fashionable, I don’t know. A stereotype. But you know, you can see some trends.

That’s really fun. We’re gonna have to play Nelly or foreign from here on out, you’re gonna leave a legacy.

That’s fine. That’s fine. Just be respectful when you do it.

I’m always respectful. I’m always respectful when I play all in. Um, so tell me a little bit about? Yeah, like, I mean, this is actually sort of a great segue into like, what does it mean to be sort of, like jokes? Where do you play with jokes? Like, how do you play with, you know, how do you play with the edges and still be EDI friendly? Or, you know, what, what’s, what’s fair game for a leader? And I’m not talking necessarily about queer leaders, but all leaders like what’s fair game? How do you play?

That’s, it’s a fantastic question, Melanie. And I think when I work with leaders, and you know, I never want people to turn off their humor, of course, not that we’re going against that whole authenticity thing. But it’s also looking at the context of the group you’re with. And I also think, too, whether it’s explicit, whether it’s a corporate values, whatever, if we’re striving to create a feedback rich culture people will autocorrect for you. Be like, Hey, Steve, that’s cool. Oh, my gosh, thank you for sharing that side note. You know, I always say like, you know, my brothers and sisters and years ago, I had a trans friend say, please also include non binary I’m like, Oh my gosh, thank you for that coaching. And so now I always say brothers and sisters and siblings. Now we’re inclusive and and I’ve actually had people dig me on the cut the title of my book, probably leadership strategies for the LGBTQ PLU leader to be the king or queen of their jungle. They’re like, that’s not non binary. I’m like, You’re right. And so I absolutely dress it in a preface on why the title is the title. Why is it a male lion on The cover versus a female lion, because those are great questions to have. And I think if you’re creating that type of team culture, that type of corporate culture, you play until someone says, You know what, no, that’s not cool. You also start to educate yourself on maybe what you preemptively could be sensitive, I started creating a program on inclusive language for leaders. And the research I’m finding is phenomenal and things that I didn’t even know living in this space for 30 years, that really, I need to second guess and rethink how I’m using some of those phrasing and then some of that ideology and some of those semantic choices.

I think it’s really interesting. And I actually had a conversation recently, with a whole bunch of queer cisgendered women who were like, Oh, my gosh, there’s so many terms, there’s so many this. And my perspective is literally, if you tell me on Monday you want this name are these pronouns, and you change your mind by Wednesday, he just let me know. And I will just, I’ll go with you. Like, what whoever you want to be. I am your girl, like, I will go with you. I will tell my children, you don’t have to make make it safe for my children. My children have so much skill around this. Like we literally had a kid who was changing name and gender came to our house on on Friday. And then we they came back on Sunday with other friends, but they weren’t coming out yet. And I was like, Hey, we got to go back to the old name. And okay, just keep us keep us in the loop.

Safety. Absolutely. And I think that that’s where, with the leaders I work with, I work with a lot of, you know, cisgender folks, and or straight folks, or, you know, a lot of times it’s white cisgender male folks, just like, I’m just scared to do anything. I’m like, you know, what, if you come at it from a heart centric leadership perspective, and you just throw it out there, say, look, I want to do my best, I’m going to mess up, you’re going to respectfully correct me, and we’ll figure this out together, boom, you’re good to go.

And I think that like things like changing pronouns, like, the more you love somebody, the harder it is, like, I’ve got one in my life right now that I’m not knocking out of the park, like I’m, I, I’ve, like, got so much programming in my body that I’m trying to come out of, and I can’t wrong, this just horrible, like, for me for them for, you know, for the whole thing. And, and, but I do think that, you know, with kindness and forgiveness, and also just not making a big deal of it, like I love to think about like the, the ups and the, you know, like blow ups and like say something and then move on, like, don’t make a big deal. Like don’t draw attention to things in public.

And I equated to same idea, like, I mean, I prefer unless you’re my mother and you’re mad at me, I’m not Stephen in very rarely Am I Steven? I’m Steve. So when someone calls me, Stephen, I just politely Correct. No, actually, it’s I prefer Steve. And we move on. And and it’s kind of the same way with pronouns is how I think about it, like, people are going to mess up, and that’s okay. Now, if they’re purposely misgendering, you or mispronouncing your name, then we can start to play around with that that’s a completely different story. That’s lack of respect. And, and you know, when that’s happening, this is where, you know, that whole empathy thing that we talked about, and probably leadership and all leaders should be talking about, your gun is awesome. And you know, when it’s, it’s not right, you know, when someone’s doing it to not be inclusive. And so that’s a whole different conversation about courage and effective communication, we pull those two together.

Well, and the word fierce comes to mind like what when should we be fierce as leaders around LGBTQ topics?

I think a leader has to make a priority on creating space for all of the others on their team, or frankly, you will fail. And and I think so one of the things that we teach, at top dog learning grew my business is the focus on being a consciously inclusive leader. And that’s, that’s our thing like we used to have, in the years ago. Diversity Inclusion was a separate module within our leadership curriculum. Now, it’s, it’s a running threat, because it has to be and if you’re our business, you’re also making it a running thread. It’s not just this department that celebrates blank month. No, it’s part of your strategy to be more conscious, inclusive, how are you including your employees? How are you including your customers, and those you service? It should not that you the DNI function shouldn’t be sitting buried in the HR area, it should be sitting next to that CFO suite as part of the the business and workplace strategy to be more effective and, and really just bring success, but also make the world even more inclusive than it already is.

Yeah, and and I think that yeah, I think you’re really right about that. Like I had such an interesting place. And then when you start to look at Ed and I, in different ways, I think, and I and I, and I do think it, it can’t be like a hand Like it’s gotten me an invitation and skilling up, I always like when people skill up around these topics, I always feel like I’m personally a safe space. People are always like, people always say these things. I never know what they’re gonna ask me. But they’re like, I don’t know if I can ask you I’ve never I. And they’re like, all over the place. Like, spit it out. What do you want to know? And then they’ve got some question about something. Because my kids are in competitive swimming, all the brands, swimmers like a really big deal.

And amazing how many, many medical experts especially gender, medical experts have popped up over the last several weeks. It’s incredible.

Well, and I’ve had some interesting conversations. Like, I love this question of fair, we might as well just talk about it for a second. Oh, it’s not fair, huh. It’s interesting how that’s not relevant for trans people in any other conversation, like, it’s not fair. It’s only if it’s cisgendered. People might not get the fair end of the stick. Yeah. And I actually, I finally realized my perspective on it is I don’t care if every records held by a trans woman in women’s sports. They’re women. It’s okay. Like, there’s no, it’s okay. They’re women.

We’re good. Well, Austin, and I think that’s enough, you know, the social media conversations I’ve been having, and face to face conversation with people. That’s yeah, if you when you boil it down to you know, trans women or women period. So if you’re having an issue, that let’s let’s unpack that differently, because you’re no one’s talking about the trans boxer or Patricio Manuel, who’s just rocking and rolling in the boxing world, no one seems to care about this trans man who’s winning all these titles and stuff. It’s the transwomen.

And we never talk about the trans men, especially in swimming, who never win another race when they were not trying to make it fair for them. There is nobody trying to make it fair, for in sport…

And I think the pull back from what we as leaders can learn from this is how are we creating that space for all of the others to be competitive, to be fair, to to get those great tasks that we’re delegating or, you know, those opportunities to advance within the organization in the workplace? You know, and now we’re talking about that unconscious bias. Is that popping up? Or that over bias? Is that popping up within the opportunities we’re giving to those around us as a leader?

Yeah, and I, I also think I’ve heard this word, the glass cliff, for women in leadership, like they’re having a lot of problems in an organization, and then they bring in a woman and it doesn’t go so well. Because all the problems were there before she started, right. And, and I’m noticing, like, you know, there’s real opportunity to add trans identities into the leadership conversation at that level, we don’t have a binary conversation. So whatever the challenges are, maybe you want to consider promoting a trans candidate, because it it takes it just adds more option, and but you may not have those candidates, if you don’t have them in if you don’t have trans people in your organization, right. What else should we talk about? Like, what are you up to as a leader in your work? And what are you experimenting with right now?

One of the things that I’ve really taken an interest in, in the given the context of both the pandemic, as well as what’s happening now within our collective workplaces, and you know, now we’re moving to more of these hybrid things, if that’s kind of your world, and the concept of proximity bias and how that plays out from a leadership perspective, if you’re not familiar with that term. We humans are programmed to like things that are physically close to us. So we favor that person that’s sitting next to us in the in the meeting room, versus the person that’s on the teleconference, or even on the Zoom, and we’re just wired that way. And so how’s that gonna play out from a leadership perspective, as we as the hybrid workplace becomes more of the norm? And what do we as leaders need to do to make sure that we don’t fall prey to that proximity bias when we’re delegating tasks, or even just just building relationships with those around us? And it takes effort and when you saw that during the pandemic, how am I fostering relationships with my my whole team that’s virtual? Now we have some people who are next to us, maybe, yeah, we’re doing this work environment where I’m only in so many days a week, and so we’re not all together, you know, unless it happens, or we plan it in one day or another and what does that look like from a leadership perspective? And what can we do to have some of those best practices, so we know that we’re not going to fall prey to that proximity bias we have.

I love that I think that’s really interesting. Yeah, we, the same is true after spending half my time in the last year in New Mexico and half the time in Canada. We also have this, you know, our ethnocentrism is the same. We’ve been really grappling that with that with sport like people are like, you have it. This is the most important race in Canada. This is the most important race in the US. And we’re like, Yeah, but we have to see it as a whole. And it it really draws attention to that idea in businesses when we have a Canadian division or we have a, you know, division in Paraguay, like, how do we think about them? Are they an afterthought? Or are they primary? Like, can we keep them primary? I think that’s really interesting.

When I first I didn’t realize until I started reflecting on it quite a bit and and I wrote an article about it. But I first understood the concept of proximity bias. When I worked for cruise line, I worked for Disney Cruise Line years ago, it’s My Disney Experience. And I was a an internal leadership consultant. So I would go on board that at the time, we had two ships, and I do leadership training and coaching and stuff, and I come back and shoreside and do stuff there. And I and we always have this weekly HR meeting between shoreside HR and the shipboard HR teams. And it was a, you know, a conference call. Now, this is technology a little bit older. So at the time, we were working over satellites, and the satellites were horribly delayed. And so you already started disenfranchising whoever was was on on the call, depending on your perspective, because the delay was there. So not only do you have proximity bias, that they’re not next to you, but now you had, you know, like this weird delay and communication. And so I remember when we first started the these, these conversations, and, you know, I noticed when we were sitting in the HR space on inshore side in Florida, there’d be people who would ignore the folks on the phone. So I finally had the idea, like, let’s take pictures of everybody who’s on on the, on the ships. And when they’re on the call, we like, you know, we had them a little sticks that stand up, and we just have their their little faces by the conference call the teleconference machine. And so you know, so we could physically remember, Ah, that’s right, so and so’s birthday, hands on or whatever. So there was that step. And that helped a little bit. But then I noticed when I’d be on board the ships, and we’d have the same meetings, but now I’m sitting on the other side, they had the exact same experience with you or Disenfranchising the folks who weren’t in the room. And so you know, and I thought about that, and some of the ways we started to think about it, then flash forward to now, technology is different, but the situation’s still the same. And I really think it’s going to be one of those opportunities, it’s going to make or break different teams, especially those hybrid teams out there.

Well, and I think it’s so interesting, because when you have a zoom team, like when you have a team on Zoom, there is a great equalizer, if everyone is on Zoom, that everybody’s pictures the same size, everybody takes up about the same amount of space. So for as a team coach, I love doing zooms sometimes for team coaching. Because it’s that like it, it frames it in an in a weird equality and it reps, some of the patterns and imperson team might have.

And I think the pull back from what we as leaders can learn from this is how are we creating that space for all of the others to be competitive. Share on X

The only challenge I totally agree with you my only the only challenge I have is when some team members don’t really know how to think about putting their best zoom foot forward. One of the things we talked about, like you know that the camera angles going up their nose, or they’re sitting in front of a window saw, you see this gorgeous silhouette, you know, and it’s not that you’re staging a show, but you’re staging a show, because every everybody’s getting data from what’s either behind me in my physical space, or my virtual, and we’re all making that those are signals that we’re sending and making into perceptions. And we want to make sure that we’re sending the right perceptions to those who are receiving the message.

Well, and I have a question for you. And I’m seeing this phenomenon. And I’m not going to present this like perfectly because, you know, sometimes my brain just goes to these places, and I work on it in my head. And I’ve been kind of chewing on this. But you do enough Ed and I work that I’m really curious about it. So I work in tech a lot. And I’ve noticed that there’s these people in tech who are prizes, like, like women, you know, black women, for example. They’re like a prize in leadership. But because they’re a prize, like because they don’t have enough women in tech, and they don’t have enough people of color in tech. And so then they become this sort of prize. But because of that, because they’re so valuable in the economy of EDI, they don’t get any feedback about their leadership. And so it’s really hard to grow. And I keep seeing this exact same thing that like they they get a lot more latitude in their decision making. So they can hang themselves way better, like on bad leadership decision making. But then nobody says anything so they don’t get any like of the same feedback loops or 360 data out Are you have you seen this phenomenon.

I have not experienced that phenomenon with the folks that I work with, and that the coaching situations that I’m in. But I could imagine that if there’s kind of a lack of trust within the overall workplace, coupled with a discomfort with providing balanced feedback to all those involved, I could see that kind of bubbling up as a Disney, we never set a problem, we set an area of opportunity. So I could see that as being an area of opportunity for overall leadership to kind of grapple with it and to make sure that you were not doing a bias on the other side. Which is that kind of favoritism mentality?

Well, it just I’ve seen it a couple of times recently. And I’m, I’m curious about who we need to be to be brave as we up our diversity, to actually develop leaders who are diverse, who may not come from a background where they got a lot of development in their early leadership life. And so I just, I think it’s something to pay attention to, you know, I agree, and to be and to be kind and supportive of like, not giving feedback to someone because of their diversity is not a it’s not a kindness.

Well, when, when I talk about, you know, how you foster an inclusive work culture, you know, there’s obviously there’s zero silver bullets. It’s not like, you know, Steve coming to do a keynote. Yeah, we’re inclusive. No, that’s, that could be one of many arrows in your quiver. But the one thing that really starts with, I truly am passionate about creating a feedback rich culture, where feedback is seen as a gift and as a positive thing, you know, when I do a lot of like, my leadership stuff, I always ask people, you know, when someone comes up to you and says, Oh, I have some feedback for you, what’s your emotional reaction? Like, right in that moment? Because chances are people are like, ooh, feedback, give it to me, because they’ve been trained Pavlov’s dog, that the word feedback is bad. Well, it’s not. I mean, if you’re doing it right, feedback is gorgeous gift to make me an even better leader, just like the point you’re just saying, and so.

You’re missing the information, you need to grow.

Things that you’re missing, because you can’t see it. And someone’s saying, Look, I’m going to have the bravery and the courage to share with you what I see now. Now, also along that same line, you know, feedback is a gift just like that, that gift you get from that crazy and whoever, who always gives you that ugly holiday sweater, and what do you do when you get that gift? Thank you very much. I truly appreciate you making the effort. You don’t actually have to believe the the feedback. But no, it’s a gift and at least take it with some honor. And try to see you how they got to that perspective, you may agree with it, but find out how they got there.

And where can people find you, Steve?

The easiest way is if you go to topdoglearning.biz, you’ll get redirected to our master page. But there you can find all about the stuff that we do at top dog grooming group, you’ll see both pride leadership and some of my other books, you’ll see my team, we have some free learning Topas, which is what we call little bite sized learning vignettes, and some other cool stuff and ways to get a hold of us.

That’s amazing. Thank you so much for being on the show. We’ll make sure you get that link in the show notes as well. And thank you for coming. I really enjoyed having you here.

Thank you so much for this.

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It was just great talking to Dr. Steve today, I love this idea of a feedback being being a gift. I think it is the deepest gift to be having access to information. I think so often as leaders, we’re afraid of information if it doesn’t align with what we already believe. And so I really encourage you, as you get information to see it as information to be curious about what what you knew already what you didn’t know and not to leap to an immediate, you know, defense of yourself like that you didn’t know was because of this or that but just to go, Oh, that’s really interesting. Let me think about that. And then buy yourself time. You know, anytime you’re getting feedback, that’s hard to take. Just give yourself a minute say, Hey, let me think about that for a little while. Get back to you. It’s always okay to ask more time. It’s great for anytime you meet with a manager and they say something to you that you are like in the moment. Just train yourself to ask for more time like wow, that’s really interesting. Let me think about that for a minute and get back to you. It’s it’s a great leadership skill. It has been great venue with you here today. Go experiment!

 

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Steve Yacovelli

Dr. Steve Yacovelli (“The Gay Leadership Dude®”) is the Owner & Principal of TopDog Learning Group (LLC) – a learning and development, leadership, change management, and diversity and inclusion consulting firm based in Orlando, FL, USA, with affiliates across the globe.

Steve and TopDog have had the pleasure of working with some great client-partners who they consider to be members of their “pack.” He’s worked with Fortune 500 greats like The Walt Disney Company and Bayer to amazing not-for-profits like The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation and The American Library Association; large universities like The Ohio State University and The University of Central Florida, to small entrepreneurial rock stars like International Training & Development and GovMojo, Inc. Steve and TopDog have thoroughly enjoyed helping their client-partners grow, develop, expand, and be successful with their corporate learning, change management, diversity and inclusion, and leadership consulting goodness.

Steve is also an author and speaker. His latest book, “Pride Leadership: Strategies for the LGBTQ+ Leader to be the King or Queen of their Jungle” ‘came out’ in June 2019.

With almost thirty years’ experience in leadership, strategy, organizational learning, and communication, Steve is a rare breed of professional that understands the power of using academic theory and applying it to the corporate setting to achieve business results. Oh, and he’s quite fond of dogs, too.

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